那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

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april
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那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-03 15:43

尽最大努力不剧透的来写一篇读后感。希望谷里的同学都去看,真是非常好非常值得的一种阅读体验。剧也推荐,可以当前菜,剧拍得很忠于原著。
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Elena Ferrante这名字在纽约客出现过几次。我知道这是个意大利的”匿名作家“。顶着这个笔名写了一系列畅销小说。那不勒斯四部曲(neapolitan novels)是最新的一个系列,也是最红的。而且小说以女性视角来写。据说功力非凡。史无前例。更有意思是作者坚决不露面。只有TA的编辑知道其真面目。所以大家沸沸扬扬猜来猜去。甚至有人说是位男作家冒着女人的名字写的(这是有多大男子主义啊!写的好的小说就一定是男性作家?!!)

最近四部曲被翻译成了中文,豆瓣上常看到大家在推荐。我也一直存了心要去读。但是一直没有做到。去年感恩节假期的时候,发现HBO在播一个新剧”我的天才女友“(My Brilliant Friend)第一季。就是根据四部曲改编的。看了半集就爱上了。拉上妈妈一起看。后来连小人都兴致勃勃跟我们追了几集。我猜因为第一季里两个主人公女孩子在小学,有很多小学生们打架吵架的情节小人很有共鸣。因为还在联播,一直追到十二月中期才看完第一季。不甘心等剧了解下文。在等每个礼拜更新的时候就买了Kindle 版,哗哗哗看得手不释卷。剧追完了书也看完了。真好看啊!好像我所有的按钮都被这书按了一遍。爽得不得了。

从来没有读过更深刻更直面现实更细致的描述女性成长的书。不仅是女性间的友谊,还包含了为人母,为人妻,为人情妇,以及性向。写作风格也是独具一格。真是当得起”史无前例“这个评语。诚实,直接,而且感人。I’ve never seen anyone else writing about being a woman like the author has done.

故事讲的那不勒斯一个贫民区里两个女孩子一生的友谊。时间跨度从五十年到到八十年代。很多地方,她们的生活跟我们生长的中国好像啊。其中一个女孩子后来离开那不勒斯去米兰/翡冷翠读书成家,当时她面对的文化冲击,简直像极了我离开中国到美国时的情形。书中人物对待政治(那不勒斯/意大利的政局)也很像我记忆力中国孩子对待政治的态度。都是不可信的但是又无法摆脱或者改变。总是带着怀疑的滤镜。

以前听说过意大利的Red Brigades. 但是主流媒体好像都没有详细报道过Red Brigades变成这么暴力的起因,也就是他们对抗的法西斯们有多暴力。这些细节让我想到如今的美国和西欧。不寒而栗。

意大利是多么奇怪的一个国家,几乎跟中国一样奇怪一样暴力。。。
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纽约客上各种有关报道

The New York Review of Books: Italy's Great, Mysterious Storyteller
纽约客剧评之一: A Prada Ad for Working-Class Gloom, but with Shades of Humble Tenderness
The language is Italian and its dialects. The genre is neorealist melodrama, with a sumptuous nostalgia for the Golden Age films of Roberto Rossellini, Vittorio De Sica, and Luchino Visconti. The costumes and art, with their deep colors and stylized shabbiness and sumptuous austerity, are like a Prada ad for working-class gloom. The bricklayer’s son seethes about economic injustice while sporting an excellent maroon turtleneck. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: The atmosphere is thick in a way that sometimes verges on self-parody and sometimes feels appropriate amid the ferocity of the friendship between Elena and Lila and the intensity of the adult intrigues as the children understand them. Tales of adultery and usury roll down to their ears by way of gossip, misheard whispers, and cautionary folklore, and they snowball into thrilling myth. Beneath the show’s heavy coats of operatic varnish and prestige-TV enamel, it demonstrates a humble tenderness.
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两个女孩子小时候的居民楼。我觉得跟我从小住的苏联老大哥帮忙建的宿舍楼好像!

刚看了一篇作者访谈,这段话很好的描述了本书。我当初推荐给好朋友时,她也问这书/剧是不是很暴力?我当时一愣。剧/书中的情绪很暴力,但是并不是美国电影那种暴力,因为几乎是不见血的。但是情节很“暴力”人物情绪也是。
I’m comforted by stories that emerge through horror to a turning point, stories in which someone is redeemed as confirmation that peace and happiness are possible, or that one can return to a private or public Eden. But I tried to write a story like that, long ago, and I discovered that I didn’t believe in it. I’m drawn, rather, to images of crisis, to seals that are broken. When shapes lose their contours, we see what most terrifies us, as in Ovid’s “Metamorphoses,” Kafka’s “Metamorphosis,” and Clarice Lispector’s extraordinary “Passion According to G.H.” You don’t go beyond that; you have to take a step back and, to survive, reënter some good fiction. I don’t believe, however, that every fiction we orchestrate is good. I cling to those that are painful, those that arise from a profound crisis of all our illusions. I love unreal things when they show signs of firsthand knowledge of the terror, and hence an awareness that they are unreal, that they will not hold up for long against the collisions. Human beings are extremely violent animals, and the violence they are always ready to use in order to impose their own eternal, salvific life vest, while shattering those of others, is frightening.
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-tu ... a-ferrante
Last edited by april on 2019-04-03 21:09, edited 1 time in total.
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-04-03 18:30

太好了,你慢慢写,细细写,我先去看一会儿剧。 :-)

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-03 20:35

四部曲!总共有多长? :worthy:
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-03 20:58

Jun wrote:
2019-04-03 20:35
四部曲!总共有多长? :worthy:
差不多总共1700页,第一本331,第二 471, 第三 480, 第四 400
非常易读。我基本上第一本跳过去因为看了剧,挑了几幕看剧没太看懂的读了。后面三本一口气读完的。里面情节的反转再反转经常惊得我,这也可以?!
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-04-03 22:51

四月同学为了不剧透,真是煞费苦心 :mrgreen: 我就是很想跟你讨论渣男的!!

我是去年圣诞假期回国的飞机上开读这套书的,有读者说这是我们这个时代的“战争与和平”,我觉得恰如其分,史诗般的故事。不仅仅是人物形象引人入胜,时代背景也激动人心。

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-03 23:39

putaopi wrote:
2019-04-03 22:51
四月同学为了不剧透,真是煞费苦心 :mrgreen: 我就是很想跟你讨论渣男的!!
哈哈哈!我当初刚开始看剧就去豆瓣混讨论区被剧透一脸。但是也看到这个,乐死了,于是更加急吼吼想知道渣男怎么渣的。“刚看完书过来,在原著的几本书的讨论区都有人建群说要一起骂一骂XX这个渣男,因为实在渣出天际 渣出高度,连索拉拉被他称的讨人喜欢起来”
putaopi wrote:
2019-04-03 22:51
我是去年圣诞假期回国的飞机上开读这套书的,有读者说这是我们这个时代的“战争与和平”,我觉得恰如其分,史诗般的故事。不仅仅是人物形象引人入胜,时代背景也激动人心。
"战争与和平“也这么好看?也许我该再去试试也许现在能读下去了?
是的,读起来就像是意大利现代史。lila可以从鞋匠的女儿到屠宰场工人到IT startup老板我觉得这跨度简直大的让人嘡目结舌。但是却又合情合理。整个小区的经济命脉虽有起伏却像一张渔网无论她们怎么挣扎都束缚着她们,简直让人绝望。在这种大背景下却又可以细细描绘Lila的作文,她对伊利亚特的见解,这种绚烂的诗情画意可以和”阶级斗争“共存,而且共存的如此之协调。叹为观止。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
Posts: 3288
Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-04-04 9:58

april wrote:
2019-04-03 23:39

哈哈哈!我当初刚开始看剧就去豆瓣混讨论区被剧透一脸。但是也看到这个,乐死了,于是更加急吼吼想知道渣男怎么渣的。“刚看完书过来,在原著的几本书的讨论区都有人建群说要一起骂一骂XX这个渣男,因为实在渣出天际 渣出高度,连索拉拉被他称的讨人喜欢起来”
古语说,就怕流氓有文化 :mrgreen: 我第二部看得不仔细,Elena 对渣男的obessesion很大程度上是sexual的,所以我觉得她求仁得仁,疹子发过了,也就放下了。Lina 我就不太明白,算是天真幼稚?她一向对男性都是当做打开新天地,挣扎出去的一条道路,并不享受男女情爱。

幻儿
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 幻儿 » 2019-04-04 10:18

我也看见好几个女朋友倾力推荐这套书,于是借了第一本书来看。确实很好,但我并没有那么震动,可能因为第一部书是童年和青少年,故事刚刚展开吧。下面是我当时写的读后感。有剧透,希望跟读过的人交流。

This book was highly recommended by a friend and I am glad I read it. I enjoyed the characters, the storyline and the writing. The first of the quartet, this book is a coming-of-age story about two girls, Elena and Lila. The first part of this book describes their childhood, centering around the ogre of the neighborhood -- Don Achille. This part reminds me of To Kill a Mockingbird where kids are also warned about a certain "monster" in the neighborhood. Only, in To Kill a Mockingbird, the monster turned out to be a good man who saved children, and in this book, Don Achille was murdered, brutally. It was the first shock to me -- although the author is brilliant in setting the background and the tone for the story with all kinds of casual violence and death, I didn't expect murder to be depicted in vivid detail by a child. I was reminded harshly that it was indeed a dark and brutal world, and our Elena and Lila's innocence was lost with the murder.

The second part of the book describes their adolescent years and centers around the shoes that Lila designed. As most teenagers, Elena and Lila struggled to find their own identities. It's during this period that Elena went to middle school and would continue her education, concerning herself with abstract questions such as what is the holy spirit, whereas Lila started to work at the family's shoe repair shop and she expressed herself through shoe designing. They also struggled sexually. Elena was sexually assaulted by a much older man Donato Sarratore and Lila was pursued by multiple men but had to settle for someone she didn't particularly like in order to escape the man she absolutely couldn't stand. The book ended with a wedding, which should be a happy event, but it ended with Elena realizing that she had to get away from these people, and Lila seeing the shoes that she designed, the symbol of her dream and ambition, which was given to her husband, was being worn by the man she detested. It was a slap on her face and we know that a storm was coming.

A twist that I didn't expect is on the title character, my brilliant friend -- I thought it refers to Lila, because the narrator obviously adores her, but turned out that it's Lila, who called Elena "my brilliant friend." It's an interesting revelation. I started to ask myself, did I pay too much attention to Lila and not paying enough attention to Elena, our narrator? It's almost like when reading The Great Gatsby, suddenly you realize, wait a minute, the Great Gatsby is Nick, the narrator! That shifts the perspective of the entire book! I think the author did this intentionally and I would definitely pay more attention to Elena in the next book.

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-04 10:19

putaopi wrote:
2019-04-04 9:58
古语说,就怕流氓有文化 :mrgreen: 我第二部看得不仔细,Elena 对渣男的obessesion很大程度上是sexual的,所以我觉得她求仁得仁,疹子发过了,也就放下了。Lina 我就不太明白,算是天真幼稚?她一向对男性都是当做打开新天地,挣扎出去的一条道路,并不享受男女情爱。
Elena成年后的沦陷是因为性。但是少年的时候跟Lina一样都是看上了”文化“吧?年轻不懂事的女孩子都好这一口!那么酷那么有文化的渣杀伤力太大。Lina也觉得渣男打开了新天地吧?在智力和知识上面也许lina第一次觉得棋逢对手。其实私底下渣男勤学苦练的想追得上lina。貌似lina一辈子都没有享受过性爱,是不是?这个Elena要幸运得多了。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

april
Posts: 809
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-04 10:34

幻儿 wrote:
2019-04-04 10:18

This book was highly recommended by a friend and I am glad I read it. I enjoyed the characters, the storyline and the writing. The first of the quartet, this book is a coming-of-age story about two girls, Elena and Lila. The first part of this book describes their childhood, centering around the ogre of the neighborhood -- Don Achille. This part reminds me of To Kill a Mockingbird where kids are also warned about a certain "monster" in the neighborhood. Only, in To Kill a Mockingbird, the monster turned out to be a good man who saved children, and in this book, Don Achille was murdered, brutally. It was the first shock to me -- although the author is brilliant in setting the background and the tone for the story with all kinds of casual violence and death, I didn't expect murder to be depicted in vivid detail by a child. I was reminded harshly that it was indeed a dark and brutal world, and our Elena and Lila's innocence was lost with the murder.
I've always wondered whether the vivid description of the murder was meant as a fact or as a showcase for Lina's imagination. The TV series did an excellent job of this sequence. The visual was much more powerful than what i would have imagined reading the book alone. Maybe because i wasn't familiar with the kind of cooking utensils in an Napoli family at the time. From this aspect i think the TV series enhanced the visual of the book, similar to "Arrival" enhanced the alien language comparing to "The story of your life".

Somehow i don't find the murder being the highlight of the first book. There were so many unexpected moments that i found myself being constantly in shock: Lina threw Elena's doll into the basement, Lina's dad threw her out of the window, Melina fell down the stairs fighting with Donato's wife, like the author said, real life is full of violence, and the book seems to highlight that fact.
幻儿 wrote:
2019-04-04 10:18
A twist that I didn't expect is on the title character, my brilliant friend -- I thought it refers to Lila, because the narrator obviously adores her, but turned out that it's Lila, who called Elena "my brilliant friend." It's an interesting revelation. I started to ask myself, did I pay too much attention to Lila and not paying enough attention to Elena, our narrator? It's almost like when reading The Great Gatsby, suddenly you realize, wait a minute, the Great Gatsby is Nick, the narrator! That shifts the perspective of the entire book! I think the author did this intentionally and I would definitely pay more attention to Elena in the next book.
That was a brilliant twist! The subsequent books would talk more about the intertwined lives of these two. The up and down's of their friendship. I'm fascinated by all the little devious thoughts they held toward each other, the rivalry of a female relationship was so vivid in this series. For this alone, i couldn't image a male writer navigate these nuances so effortlessly. The author has to be a "SHE"! :)
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
Posts: 3288
Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-04-04 10:39

幻儿 wrote:
2019-04-04 10:18
我也看见好几个女朋友倾力推荐这套书,于是借了第一本书来看。确实很好,但我并没有那么震动,可能因为第一部书是童年和青少年,故事刚刚展开吧。下面是我当时写的读后感。有剧透,希望跟读过的人交流。
幻儿读得好细,继续读后面的几本吧,我觉得这些孩子们长大之后的生活和纠葛让人物更圆满了,她们的人生角色也和时代背景一起不断地演变。个人来说,做为女性,女儿,和一个小女孩的妈妈,就像四月说的那样,这本书把我的hot buttons 都摸遍了。

星光
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 星光 » 2019-04-05 10:22

啊我特别喜欢这套书,连续熬夜花了一个星期看完了。
作者笔力了得,很有书中所描述的莉拉的天才风采,一众人物刻画得叫人牵肠挂肚。且坦白得惊人,一点隐瞒也没有,心里的边角全部摊开在亮处。幻儿说的那个twist我感受是一样一样的,只是到了第二本好像还是忍不住更加注意莉拉。

意大利人仿佛特别擅长创作普通人的史诗,我很喜欢的电影长片The best of youth,虽然风格不同,也是其中翘楚。

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-05 11:30

星光 wrote:
2019-04-05 10:22
啊我特别喜欢这套书,连续熬夜花了一个星期看完了。
作者笔力了得,很有书中所描述的莉拉的天才风采,一众人物刻画得叫人牵肠挂肚。且坦白得惊人,一点隐瞒也没有,心里的边角全部摊开在亮处。幻儿说的那个twist我感受是一样一样的,只是到了第二本好像还是忍不住更加注意莉拉。

意大利人仿佛特别擅长创作普通人的史诗,我很喜欢的电影长片The best of youth,虽然风格不同,也是其中翘楚。
啊!我这块砖又炸出来一块玉。我刚开始看的时候在谷里搜旧帖,觉得居然没人讨论过好像很不可思议。这书跟恶人谷应该很般配才对。 :mrgreen:

我也喜欢The Best of Youth! 星光这么一说,才发现真是这样!一直记得纽约客Anthony Lane那篇评。原来Lane不刻薄的时候可以这么温柔。 :heartpump:
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/cri ... rci_cinema
"This is how people find love in “The Best of Youth.” They meet in a small kitchen, where one of them calls the other a klutz for not being able to work the coffee machine. They talk about college, and exchange a look. That’s it. And this is how people make out: they fumble warmly in a car, beside a phone booth, with no music surging to their aid; unless you count the Roman rain outside, with its soft percussive beat.“
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

Jun
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Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-05 13:46

我记得在谷里写过The Best of Youth 的,很久很久之前了。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
Posts: 809
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-05 14:01

果然!哇!06年!怪不得我没看过
http://bjvwkzh.fabvalley.org/viewtopic.php?t=1596
Jun 居然认为男主一般般?Matteo很帅啊!
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

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