He Says She Says

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Knowing
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He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-14 4:40

2018年底沃伦和桑德斯单独吃饭讨论她准备参选总统。沃伦说桑德斯当时说女候选人赢不了总统大选。桑德斯否认说过这样的话。他承认说过川普是性别歧视者,会用一切攻击手段

我猜桑德斯说了类似“你是女的,这是个容易被攻击的弱点,你赢不了,别参选了“的话。然后就忘了。因为他不觉得这是多么patronizing 的话。沃伦则很怒,回来马上跟亲近的朋友和助手抱怨:“你能想象桑德斯今天对我说了啥?”


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/us/p ... e=Homepage
“Among the topics that came up was what would happen if Democrats nominated a female candidate. I thought a woman could win; he disagreed,” she said. “I have no interest in discussing this private meeting any further because Bernie and I have far more in common than our differences on punditry.” She added that she and Mr. Sanders were “friends and allies” and said she believed they would continue to work together to beat Mr. Trump.

Mr. Sanders, in his statement earlier on Monday, said it was “ludicrous” to think he would have made such a comment.

“It’s sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren’t in the room are lying about what happened,” Mr. Sanders said. “Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by three million votes in 2016.”

Mr. Sanders added that he had told Ms. Warren “that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could.”

Asked last March whether Mr. Sanders had urged her not to run, Ms. Warren said, “Bernie and I had a private dinner, and my view is that dinner stays private.”
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Jun
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Jun » 2020-01-14 8:09

这事儿我也看到了。我估计 Sanders 现在不得不否认,但内心并不觉得说这话有什么不对或者错误。He probably doesn't care. 他的基本盘本来就是白男,白男看见这个消息只有更起劲,对他有利无害。

我觉得大部分人都相信 Sanders 确实说过这话,但是大部分人并不会责怪他这么想。

Anytime there is a conflict like this, most people automatically blame the woman, even if they believe her.
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-14 10:37

He literally had an heart attack and refuses to step back. And he wanted Warren to step back because she was female. The sense of entitlement!
Nevertheless, she persisted.

幻儿
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by 幻儿 » 2020-01-14 10:50

Well, 我不觉得Sanders不退出有什么不对,Ginsburg had three (!!!) cancers and three broken ribs and she refused to step back.
而且我觉得Sanders说女候选人赢不了2020大选也挺对的。就民主党这样子,男的女的都够呛。

tiffany
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by tiffany » 2020-01-14 10:54

老,白,男
我讨厌三德斯,有些时候甚于我讨厌老川
有酒有酒 闲饮东窗

putaopi
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by putaopi » 2020-01-14 11:20

我痛恨川普的同时也对民主党失望,但是最近我发现认识的人在组织摇摆舞舞会,为民主党筹款。他们的目的是支持红州的民主党候选人,参加州议会选举,把红州翻蓝。我觉得有点安慰和希望了。

Jun
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Jun » 2020-01-14 11:51

有多少人知道, Bernie Sanders 根本不是民主党人,自己注册为独立,但是 caucus with Democrats.

他这人就是这样,你敬他十分,他能还你一分就不错了。因为他最正确,你们都是修正主义。

总之就是,同样的事男人做就是有魄力,女人做就是bitch 里外不是人。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-14 16:03

我不恨桑德斯。我就是觉得他真是典型老白男。我也不认为发过心脏病一定要退选,选民自己可以决定。 但是,如果是Warren,Klobuchar 发了心脏病,一定会有人说健康状况令她不electable. 换句话说,女候选人的electability 本来就低,必须其他地方都十全十美,差一点都不行。前阵子Klobuchar 说女性被要求的标准更高,Buttigieg 要是个女的,那点经验值根本不够被认真当总统候选人对待。 我喜欢 Buttigieg. 他是我第二喜欢的候选人,(第一是Warren)但是Klobuchar 说句不能更实的大实话, 被媒体踩的哇。 所以我就是想对桑德斯吼一句,fuck electability, you lost to a woman in 2016. and I hope you lose to a woman again in 2020!
Nevertheless, she persisted.

putaopi
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by putaopi » 2020-01-14 16:14

坦白讲我不能get Buttigeig 的优点,在我看来他不如Andrew Yang progressive.

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-14 16:40

Buttigieg 的优点不是progressive。 我喜欢他的诚实,镇定,温和和empathy。 他坦率承认克林顿和奥巴马政府的不足,真心同情中西部被时代甩下逐渐滑入贫困的lower middle class 。 反正就是我虽然也有点同情但完全无法共情的人群,他能共情,我蛮钦佩的。虽然他说的话玉米地铁锈带人民到底听不听得进去我也不知道,看选举结果吧。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

tiffany
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by tiffany » 2020-01-14 18:08

其实我真的觉得安卓杨那个全民国家发钱计划非常有前瞻性。想想广大工人的工作都是被机器抢走的,机器什么都不需要,不对,机器没有购物的需要,那么悖论就来了,机器高效率的生产出那么多东西,卖给谁啊?想想以前是一个工厂的工人和老婆孩子一大家子人,要吃要喝要娱乐...这一工厂的机器完全不能带动本地周边服务业,光产出有啥用啊
有酒有酒 闲饮东窗

Jun
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Jun » 2020-01-14 18:32

嗐,这理论一百年前就在讲了,一百年后工人被剥削的程度一点都没少,可能还更厉害了。别说什么全民发钱了,给工人涨点工资也好啊,马上能起到你说的带动消费的效果。二十多年前我在大学里上 Political Science 101,教师老头就在贩卖这个大萧条之前就有的理论。

为什么美国工人的实际工资,购买力,四十年不见涨呢?四五十年的阶级斗争,眼看着工人阶级步步败退,忽然就能用全民发钱的一招解决了?I wish. 让我想起工业革命时期愤怒的失业工人捣毁抢了他们工作的机器,因为怪机器总比怪资本家容易得多。

你想想,连给已经在拼命工作的工人涨点工资都不肯,资本家会白给不工作的人钱?搞来搞去最后肯定变成从中产阶级头上刮出来,补贴给失业人员。到时候刮到白领中产头上了,大家不要后悔叫苦。

美国议会和总统基本上每隔几年就给资本家减税,只见减不见增。如果真搞每个人都发基本生活费,这钱会从资本家手里抠出来吗?老板会多拔一根毛吗?共和党国会分分钟要砍掉 Medicare 和 social security 了,就是现在,等川普一连任就立刻动刀子,我们这些年工资扣进去的钱都快要血本无归了,还指望着拿到 UBI 呢,感觉好肉糜。(我不是在吓唬人,随便搜一搜 Republican Senator, medicare cuts, social security cuts, entitlement cuts,能出来一大堆公开的表态。)

基本上我同意 Bernie 说的大部分纲领,但是在美国这个环境里,搞一点点社会主义比登天还难。

UBI 是好政策吗?是,在芬兰。实际上在芬兰他们已经试过了。

美国能跟芬兰比么?人家已经是全女班领导了。也就是说,UBI 在美国搞好的可能性,跟出现全女班领导的可能性,差不多。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

笑嘻嘻
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2020-01-14 19:15

我能get Buttigeig 的优点,但我一点也不看好他的优点。同情有个p用,他是站在高地上同情。就是给受过高等教育的受众的客厅讲解。
云浆未饮结成冰

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-15 4:11

我跟Jun看法差不多。UBI 是社会进化的方向。但是在美国至今不接受政府单一全民健保的现实下,没有实际性。

这不是说我反对推,很多progressive idea 都需要推上十年二十年三十年甚至五十年才会逐渐有可行性。妇女选举权花了一百年实现,在这一百年里社会逐渐准备好。同性婚姻花了二三十年。没人推,社会就永远不会准备好。所以我很appreciate Andrew Yang 一是推进了亚裔参政,二是把UBI推进大家视野。然而我不打算把选票投给他。

昨晚辩论里Warren 回击女性electability 的话,很有力:这个台子上站的男人们加在一起输掉十次选举,而女人们每战必胜。这话基本是抄的Klobuchar 的作业,第一次说的时候还有Kamala Harris.我也喜欢Kamala Harris. 可惜她fizzle out 了
Nevertheless, she persisted.

vivi
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by vivi » 2020-01-15 13:05

一直有人说Sanders是misogynist,他的很多粉像红卫兵。他老让我想起科宾。我烦死老白男了,就想要个女总统!
又没头脑又不高兴

幻儿
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by 幻儿 » 2020-01-15 15:44

是, 我也受够老白男了。
昨天看辩论,Biden和Sanders讲话我都不爱听,尤其是Biden!Sanders好歹还有energy,Biden怎么一点精神头都没有,好像被迫来的似的。
俩女的还不错。不过我还是喜欢Kamala Harris,她下去了好可惜。
另外两个男的,Tom Steyer作为毫无政治经验的商人竟然挺了这么久,花了不少钱吧,他和Bloomberg可以拼一下谁能花钱。Buttigieg撑这么久我也很意外,感觉也就是年轻,政治包袱少,没什么亮眼的。

Jun
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Jun » 2020-01-15 16:11

Bernie 跟 Corbyn 真是双胞胎。不过我也怀疑 Bernie 背后有俄国势力,他几乎从来不说俄国坏话的。Bernie Bros 就是红卫兵,主要事业是仇女,基本上没进川粉阵营的 Incels 都变成了 Bernie Bros. Bernie 跟有色人种的关系非常麻麻,但是总体来说 Bernie Bros 种族歧视不太严重。

同受不了 Biden。Buttigieg 其实是个很典型的白男,走中西部 moderate 路线,一切纲领跟 Amy Klobuchar 重复,但资历与能力都不如 Klobachar。这说明啥呢?说明女性再有能力再证明自己,公众接受程度仍不如弯男。

我特别烦媒体报道这件事的口气,大惊小怪地说 Sanders 可能私下说过女性选不上总统,哇好严重啊,好 damaging 啊!这下他惨了。搞得好像有这种观点多么稀少多么 unpopular 似的。装什么装啊。Sanders 自己还拼命否认,指 Warren 为撒谎抹黑他,Bernie Bros 趁机大肆发泄仇女热情。

记得以前有 celebrity 当众爆 the N-word 被媒体报道,搞得好像这是多么 taboo 的话,Spike Lee 说,我天天被警察叔叔和路人骂 nigger,你们大惊小怪地装什么装。我老早就觉得美国文化里的虚伪才华大概是世界第一,相比之下独裁国家的粉饰太平自吹自擂都显得太纯真傻冒了。所以美国妇女自己都没弄清形势:we are the niggers.
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-15 17:49

We are the niggers? You wish! I would like to quote my fav comment on 2016 election night.
What I've learned so far tonight: America is WAAAAAAAAY more sexist than it is racist. And it's pretty fucking racist..
Nevertheless, she persisted.

dropby
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by dropby » 2020-01-15 20:05

tiffany wrote:
2020-01-14 18:08
其实我真的觉得安卓杨那个全民国家发钱计划非常有前瞻性。想想广大工人的工作都是被机器抢走的,机器什么都不需要,不对,机器没有购物的需要,那么悖论就来了,机器高效率的生产出那么多东西,卖给谁啊?想想以前是一个工厂的工人和老婆孩子一大家子人,要吃要喝要娱乐...这一工厂的机器完全不能带动本地周边服务业,光产出有啥用啊
社会最后肯定是往这个方向发展的。

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-16 3:34

你们真乐观。其实也许climate change 一下就把99.9999%人口都自然消灭了也很就可能。全世界就剩billionaire 们早早建好碉堡带着家人住进去,遥控指挥机器人奴隶在外面挖矿种植制造他们生活所需的各种产品。另一拨儿billionaire 们造了飞船带着机器人奴隶移民火星去了。
Last edited by Knowing on 2020-01-16 11:44, edited 2 times in total.
Nevertheless, she persisted.

CAVA
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by CAVA » 2020-01-16 4:19

联想到英国12月糟心大选时捏着鼻子策略性地投工党,有点好奇大家最希望的是选一个女总统,还是选一个赢面大的民主党总统把共和党赶下台?

Jun
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Jun » 2020-01-16 7:22

在民主党初选里投给女候选人。然后在大选里投给 Joe Biden。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-16 7:59

我捏着鼻子过了三年了……再捏几个月也不会死
Nevertheless, she persisted.

笑嘻嘻
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2020-01-16 12:18

地球上的气候再恶化也比火星气候好。地球上过不好就不用考虑火星了。发去火星移民的倒霉蛋肯定选一批亡命之徒,跟当初移民澳洲差不多。
云浆未饮结成冰

vivi
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by vivi » 2020-01-16 17:33

Jun wrote:
2020-01-16 7:22
在民主党初选里投给女候选人。然后在大选里投给 Joe Biden。
Jun压Biden啦!初选女候选人,大选民主党谁都行吧。
又没头脑又不高兴

vivi
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by vivi » 2020-01-18 16:43

这个quiz挺有意思的,看看你和哪个民主党的候选人政见最相似,我是和Yang!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... s-with-me/
又没头脑又不高兴

dropby
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by dropby » 2020-01-18 19:33

我最喜欢杨,第二喜欢老彭。测试结果政见相似度也是这个顺序。

不过这两好象都没戏。我对川皇下台很悲观。不觉得前面三能对抗川皇。

simonsun
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by simonsun » 2020-01-20 0:25

周周,爸爸来看你了,爸爸老了,以后不来了。
ad hoc

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-20 3:59

赞纽约时报!

烦死彭博了,一脸我有钱我砸死你们的大佬作风。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Knowing
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Re: He Says She Says

Post by Knowing » 2020-02-12 8:30

恭喜Amy Klobuchar 在NH初选表现强劲。
为杨安泽默哀一分钟。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

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