Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

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Knowing
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Joined: 2003-11-22 20:37

Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Knowing » 2019-12-25 14:19

应景节日生存小帖士

https://cn.nytimes.com/style/20191223/y ... 1534295256

和父母在一起时,我只有48小时的心态平和期。但凡过了两天,我身体里就会像响起警报一样,让我重返1999年。我又会变成一个不耐烦的暴躁少年,妈妈说的每一句话,无论多么无害,都会引来我这样的反应:“唉,妈,别再唠叨我了!”

这种无法遏制的退化行为,从我上大学开始就一直在发生,当我自己成为家长后则变得更加严重。我以为我现在是个非常成熟的女性。我已经过了那个阶段了。但就像上了发条的钟一样,一到和父母接触的第三天,我又会置身90年代那辆借来的本田车里,皱着眉头高声播放着饲养员乐队(The Breeders)的音乐。

在这个问题上,我可不是孤例。心理学家甚至有一个术语来描述回到原生家庭时,我们身上出现的可预测的、令人抓狂的退化行为模式。这个术语叫做家庭系统理论,乔治·华盛顿大学(George Washington University)医学与健康科学学院的精神病学临床助理教授普贾·拉克什明(Pooja Lakshmin)博士说,家庭都有各自的平衡,每个人在“维持家庭系统完好的过程中”都扮演着固定的角色。所以,不管你的既定角色是什么——安抚者、小丑或是脾气暴躁的人——当踏进童年时代家庭大门的一刻,你就会重新回到那个角色之中。

密歇根大学(University of Michigan)的研究副教授基拉·伯迪特(Kira Birditt)博士一直在研究成年子女及父母之间的紧张关系,她表示,在她关于这一主题的研究中,94%的受访者声称他们的关系存在某种冲突。研究还表明,母亲和成年女儿之间的关系尤其紧张。伯迪特称这几乎是所有人际关系中“最亲密也最气人的”。(在我刚成年的时候发生的改变我人生的事之一,就是注意到自己的母亲会对她母亲所说的话生气。)
那么,要如何心平气和地与家人一起度过假期呢?这里有一些帮你保持理智的建议。

为不可避免的退化行为做好准备。这不是你是否会退化的问题,而是何时出现退化行为的问题。拉克什明博士建议,当你拜访家人之前,做一些心理准备工作,这样就可以避免触发最糟糕的行为。先问问你自己:有没有什么特定的话题或现实场合会刺激你的家人发疯?如果有,就请避开这些话题和场合。即使是变换一下环境,也能帮你从旧有模式中走出来,所以,如果家庭晚宴的餐桌上总会出现闹剧,试着出去吃一顿,看看是否能改善关系。

试着找到同理心。乔治敦大学(Georgetown University)语言学教授、《你穿这个?用对话理解母女》(You’re Wearing That? Understanding Mothers and Daughters in Conversation)一书的作者黛博拉·坦南(Deborah Tannen)博士表示,最典型的负面母女互动总包含这样一种动态:成年女儿觉得受到了母亲的批评,而母亲又觉得女儿太过敏感。如何抚育孙辈是引发这一动态的主要因素,坦南博士说:“很多女性告诉我,除了育儿技能,她们基本什么批评都可以接受。”

坦南博士给祖父母的建议是:不要多话,因为即便是(在你看来)最善意的建议,也可能被视为批评。她给成年女儿们的建议则是,“试着提醒自己,虽然那听起来像是批评,但却是关心的表现。”你的母亲只是希望你一切都顺利,而她想尽力帮上忙(即使这让你想埋在枕头里尖叫)。

给自己留点空间。你有时会需要一个逃生出口。临床心理学家、《愤怒之舞:改变亲密关系模式的女性指南》(The Dance of Anger: A Woman’s Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships)一书作者哈丽雅特·莱纳(Harriet Lerner)博士说,“不管这意味着要在浴室里躲10分钟冷静一下、安排好拜访的时间长短,还是花钱住旅馆而不是住在父母家的客房”,你都要确保自己能创造一个可以与家人产生一定情感距离的空间。当我和家人在一起时,总要确保自己能进行晨练——这让我从他们之中解脱出来,同时也是发泄对周遭环境愤怒的好渠道。

不要期待改变。拉克什明博士说,节日期间的家庭创伤不会有神奇的解决方案。12月本就是充满压力的季节——心理健康专家都说这段时间对他们的病人尤其艰难——所以,这可不是翻旧账并以为能解决这些问题的好时机。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

simonsun
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Joined: 2006-12-24 4:41

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by simonsun » 2019-12-25 15:44

不要期待改变 :mrgreen:
Violent delights.

putaopi
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Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by putaopi » 2019-12-25 17:14

这个“退化行为”,实在心有戚戚。其实是一种power struggle, 母女两人都要做主。

说起来我刚刚陪父母坐了七天游轮,居然和和气气地下船了,忍不住佩服自己 :mrgreen:

大家节日快乐,合家健康!忍住!

Knowing
Posts: 32687
Joined: 2003-11-22 20:37

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Knowing » 2019-12-26 3:16

我特别心有戚戚就是我妈一说什么我就容易炸毛,其实同样的话别人说都无所谓,有理就听没理忽略,绝对不至于动气。
Last edited by Knowing on 2019-12-26 8:18, edited 1 time in total.
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Jun
Posts: 25873
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Jun » 2019-12-26 8:17

母女之间的关系大概是人类关系中最复杂的了,依恋和竞争都非常强烈,在彼此的脸上看见自己。

忽然联想到在隔壁跟 seren 同学讨论的 self-identity 和 boundary 的神经科学,母女之间的 self-versus-other 的边界是最模糊的,也许这就是母女之间的关系如此纠结的根源?
Last edited by Jun on 2019-12-26 9:14, edited 1 time in total.
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

dropby
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Joined: 2003-11-24 12:23

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by dropby » 2019-12-26 8:55

Knowing wrote:
2019-12-26 3:16
我特别心有戚戚就是我妈一说什么我就容易炸毛,其实同样的话别人说都无所谓,有理就听没理忽略,绝对不至于动气。
Same here. 还有就是我特别容易对我妈发火,而且跟别人都早就不需要说最后一句,跟我妈就非得一句顶一句,停不下来。

必须得赞我家某人,我能和我妈在一个屋檐下住了9年,他的功劳大大的。

Knowing
Posts: 32687
Joined: 2003-11-22 20:37

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Knowing » 2019-12-26 9:20

Jun wrote:
2019-12-26 8:17
母女之间的关系大概是人类关系中最复杂的了,依恋和竞争都非常强烈,在彼此的脸上看见自己。

忽然联想到在隔壁跟 seren 同学讨论的 self-identity 和 boundary 的神经科学,母女之间的 self-versus-other 的边界是最模糊的,也许这就是母女之间的关系如此纠结的根源?
母亲很容易把女儿当自己的延伸,并且老是希望女儿还需要自己的照顾指点,而女儿在母亲面前特别努力证明自己是自己不是她。配偶旁观者清,可以起一定调节作用。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

putaopi
Posts: 3778
Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by putaopi » 2019-12-26 13:20

大家有看Marriage Story吗?有一段夫妻俩人吵架互相指责,从男方对妻子说“你越来越像你妈妈了!” 开始,愤怒的闸门就彻底打开,女方立刻回击:你跟你爹一模一样!看来很多人的button就是不要像自己的父母 :mrgreen:

豪情
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Joined: 2003-11-22 18:47

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by 豪情 » 2019-12-26 13:38

这个故事好压抑。我决定不去看。
却将万字平戎策 换得东家种树书

simonsun
Posts: 2506
Joined: 2006-12-24 4:41

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by simonsun » 2019-12-26 17:33

豪情 wrote:
2019-12-26 13:38
这个故事好压抑。我决定不去看。
看吧看吧,Adam Driver一把鼻涕一把泪和Scarlet Johansson吵架还是蛮有意思的 :mrgreen:
Violent delights.

豪情
Posts: 19851
Joined: 2003-11-22 18:47

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by 豪情 » 2019-12-26 18:59

看剧照帅哥美女搞得这么丑不忍心看。
却将万字平戎策 换得东家种树书

qinger
Posts: 5670
Joined: 2003-12-24 15:09

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by qinger » 2019-12-26 20:35

看来我得惜福。我跟我妈没吵过架,从来没有。
我妈对我说的任何意见都虚心接受,而且态度非常好。我跟我妈唯一的一次冲突是上次我回国她说我需要减肥,我当时的确体重史高但无论如何并接受从来不承认我胖的老妈都开始嫌弃我,态度很恶劣地顶回去了。回来之后自己意识到自己的确太胖了我妈说得其实也没错。。。
倒是我跟我爸在一起不超过三天一定会吵架。
现在偶是胡军的扇子。

tiffany
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Joined: 2003-11-22 20:59

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by tiffany » 2019-12-30 16:10

1?我很心平气和的接受我越来越象我妈这个事实,这个估计也是距离产生美的结果。
有酒有酒 闲饮东窗

Judy
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Joined: 2009-07-16 19:25

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Judy » 2020-01-02 17:16

我和我妈关系很好,感觉她是我人生最没底线可以一起八卦吐槽的伙伴。当然,她人情世故门儿清,从来不批评,而且很早就说过“听人劝,吃饱饭”之类。

换了我自己的母女关系,去年我发现我会对女儿发火,打着爱她至深的名义说尖刻的话。震惊之余开始自我剖析,分析下来是我意识到她离不开我,就不怕言语里伤害到她。从那以后我就小心很多,努力做到尊重她,希望能维持美好的母女关系。目前我女儿变成了我的购物闲逛伙伴,她天生品味极好,对颜色敏感又克制,唯一要提点注意的是面料,但领悟得也很快。我们也能一起做饭,她微微的挑剔能让我做得更细致些,也喜欢有人能在厨房帮着打个下手。

Knowing
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Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-03 2:47

啊啊啊,这样的母女关系多好!

我妈对我相当恨铁不成钢,常常忧虑的劝告我。 :smile-big: 效果当然很不好 :smile-big: 近年她的注意力基本集中到小绿身上,矛盾缓和了很多。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Jun
Posts: 25873
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Jun » 2020-01-03 8:36

Judy 的自省真是人间罕见的能力。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Judy
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Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Judy » 2020-01-03 12:59

Jun wrote:
2020-01-03 8:36
Judy 的自省真是人间罕见的能力。
有一次,我先是恶狠狠地责备了孩子,然后就说出了著名的台词“妈妈是最爱你的啊”,那个瞬间,我自己都吓到了。孩子的身体在躲开你,你在这边痛诉心声,must be something wrong! 感觉是家暴男打人后在说我爱你 :evil: :let_me_die:

女儿小时候,偶尔下雨她喜欢踩着水坑玩,有时候看到一个深的水坑,我会让她避开,可是她哪里肯,一定要踩一遍才罢休。父母说的话的确是好话,也多半没错的,可是人生嘛,是自己的人生,水坑不踩个遍如何体验。我想爱她就为她提供一块毛巾,水坑还得由得她踩。

qinger
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Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by qinger » 2020-01-03 13:25

Well said。
小孩不犯错误不经历挫折是不可能的,经历了那些才能成长,就像偶尔生生病可以锻炼免疫系统,一个道理。
但父母很难做到眼睁睁看着不去干涉。
我家娃生下来第二天,娃的儿医去看我们,跟我说我能给你的当妈建议就是,不要期待你家娃永远快乐。我当时听了有点别扭,后来觉得她说得很对啊。
Judy wrote:
2020-01-03 12:59
Jun wrote:
2020-01-03 8:36
Judy 的自省真是人间罕见的能力。
有一次,我先是恶狠狠地责备了孩子,然后就说出了著名的台词“妈妈是最爱你的啊”,那个瞬间,我自己都吓到了。孩子的身体在躲开你,你在这边痛诉心声,must be something wrong! 感觉是家暴男打人后在说我爱你 :evil: :let_me_die:

女儿小时候,偶尔下雨她喜欢踩着水坑玩,有时候看到一个深的水坑,我会让她避开,可是她哪里肯,一定要踩一遍才罢休。父母说的话的确是好话,也多半没错的,可是人生嘛,是自己的人生,水坑不踩个遍如何体验。我想爱她就为她提供一块毛巾,水坑还得由得她踩。
现在偶是胡军的扇子。

Jun
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Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Jun » 2020-01-03 14:05

Judy wrote:
2020-01-03 12:59
有一次,我先是恶狠狠地责备了孩子,然后就说出了著名的台词“妈妈是最爱你的啊”,那个瞬间,我自己都吓到了。孩子的身体在躲开你,你在这边痛诉心声,must be something wrong! 感觉是家暴男打人后在说我爱你 :evil: :let_me_die:
One might suspect ... 也许,有可能,当你责备孩子的时候内心已经后悔了,说出“妈妈最爱你”这话,主要是为了安抚一下自己的罪恶感。

不过其实没啥,妈妈又不是圣人,也会有情绪的时候嘛。你女儿可能早就忘记了。 :love007:
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

dropby
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Joined: 2003-11-24 12:23

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by dropby » 2020-01-03 14:23

向Judy学习,反省一下自己。我觉得我对我家娃已经很放松了,比如欢欢大冬天的穿着短裤上学,我说了她不听也就算了,所以我家娃不会“妈妈觉得我冷”。但是也可能还是该管的没管,不该管的管得太多。

快乐这件事,真的有时候父母无能为力。我已经接受欢欢和她爹一样,永远只看半杯水空。我没法做到让她的水杯永远满,那也只能在她哭的时候提供肩头和怀抱了。

Knowing
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Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-03 15:01

啥,未成年的孩子该管时一定要管, 边界设定清楚对她好对我的精神健康也好。我才不要跟人竞争‘最爱小绿’的头衔。我已经尽力了,你们要比我更爱这个孩子,我很乐意。 :twisted:
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Judy
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Joined: 2009-07-16 19:25

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Judy » 2020-01-03 15:38

复议一下Knowing,边界设定清楚管理成本最低,剩下要处理的就是期望值和emotion detach。

我会对女儿恶狠狠地指责就是这两件事没办好,免不了的期望高,又免不了的不能就事论事。指责话一出口立马后悔,就说出“爱你”这种话来抵消罪恶感。把不该犯的错误都犯了一遍。

Knowing
Posts: 32687
Joined: 2003-11-22 20:37

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Knowing » 2020-01-03 15:48

你也不用苛求自己。我觉得心情平静精力充沛的时候manage expectation 和detachment 就事论事都不难,一般是太累或者已经不耐烦的时候才会不切实际的要求孩子省心听话。所以我很体谅自己,做不到的时候就换班让素食男管,自己去干别的歇歇脑子,强撑着要求自己任何时候都耐心温和克制的当妈也许有人做得到,我做不到,那是社会编造出来压迫女人的神话。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

april
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Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by april » 2020-01-03 16:08

忍不住上来引一段Marriage Story里面女律师Nora(Laura Dern扮演,Big Little Lies!) 精彩台词,关于社会对父亲和母亲的双重规范。
Nora Fanshaw: [to Nicole] People don’t accept mothers who drink too much wine, and yell at their child, and call him an a**hole. I get it. I do it too. We can accept an imperfect dad.

Let’s face it, the idea of a good father was only invented like thirty years ago. Before that, fathers were expected to be silent, and absent, and unreliable, and selfish, and we can all say we want them to be different. But on some basic level, we accept them. We love them for their fallibilities, but people absolutely don’t accept those same failings in mothers. We don’t accept it structurally, and we don’t accept it spiritually.

Because the basis of our Judeo-Christian whatever is Mary, Mother of Jesus, and she’s perfect. She’s a virgin who gives birth, unwaveringly supports her child and holds his dead body when he’s gone. And the dad isn’t there. He didn’t even do the f**king. God is in heaven. God is the father, and God didn’t show up.

So you have to be perfect, and Charlie can be a f**k up, and it doesn’t matter. You will always be held to a different, higher standard. And it’s f**ked up, but that is the way it is.
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
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Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by putaopi » 2020-01-03 16:10

Judy 和妈妈的关系真令人羡慕,她是位智慧的母亲。我有位女友和她妈妈也是这样,但是这位阿姨跟大女儿(我朋友的姐姐)之间的关系就没那么亲密,有一定距离。

小葡萄也跟小绿一样,曾经成功地转移了我妈妈的注意力。但是现在是Teen了,不能再把人家做挡箭牌。养女儿让我感受到不由自主把孩子当成自己的延伸的倾向,从小受到的self improvement 的教育也会自然地转化成对孩子的标准要求。我明白我妈妈的心理,但是不意味着要tolerate her,她倒不会说“我最爱你”,就是跟小K妈妈一样总有“恨铁不成钢”的不甘心。

记得Lady Bird 里的妈妈对女儿说,我只是希望你成为最好的自己,女儿回答说,也许现在的我就是最好的自己。老妈一副无法接受的表情。从不同的角度看,母女俩的话都有道理。还有一点我觉得很重要的是, 母女之间的这种矛盾其实是亲密关系造成的,本身不是“坏事”, 也有positive 的一面。不是有研究发现说父母的expectations 给孩子带来压力的同时也提供动力。关键是怎么能心平气和地manage这种关系。

唐唐的郁金香
Posts: 355
Joined: 2006-03-02 9:51

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by 唐唐的郁金香 » 2020-01-04 7:23

谢谢小k推荐,火速转给女朋友们了。

前段时间读The Cost of Living (Deborah Levy),有一段母女关系的评论也非常令我感概:
There is a photograph I have kept of my mother in her late 20s. She is sitting on a rock in a picnic with her friends. Her hair is wet, because she has just had a swim. There is a kind of introspection in her expression that I now relate to the very best of her. I can see she is close to herself in this random moment. I am not sure that I thought introspection was the best of her when I was a child and teenager. What do we need dreamy mothers for? We do not want mothers who gaze beyond us, longing to be elsewhere. We need her to be in this world, lively, capable, entirely present to our needs. Did I mock the dreamer in my mother, and then insult her for having no dreams?

As the vintage story goes, it is the father who is the hero and the dreamer. He detaches himself from the pitiful needs of his women and children, and strikes out into the world to do his thing. He is expected to be himself. When he returns to the home that our mothers have made for us, he is either welcomed back into the fold or becomes a stranger who would eventually need us more than we need him. He tells us some of what he has seen in his world. We give him an edited version of the living we do everyday. Our mothers live with us in this living, and we blame her for everything because she is nearby. At the same time we try not to collude about the myths of her character and purpose in life. All the same. We need her to feel anxiety on our behalf--after all, our everyday living is full of anxiety. If we do not disclose our feelings to her, we mysteriously expect her to understand anyway. And if she moves beyond us, comes close to being a self that is not at our service, she has transgressed from the mythic, primal task of being our protector and nurturer. Yet if she comes too close, she suffocates us, infecting our fragile courage with her contagious anxiety. When our father does things he needs to do in the world, we understand it's his due. If our mother does the thing she needs to do in the world, we feel she has abandoned us. It is a miracle she survives our mixed messages, written in society's most poisonous ink. It is enough to drive her mad.
Ultimately, happiness comes down to choosing between the discomfort of becoming aware of your mental afflictions and the discomfort of being ruled by them. -- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Jun
Posts: 25873
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Jun » 2020-01-04 8:20

Let's not kid ourselves. Every child-parent relationship is full of complexity including conflicts. By "every" I mean every. 没有冲突的关系是绝对不可能的,and by "绝对" I also mean 绝对,by “不可能” I do mean impossible.

如果有人(包括社会)向你宣传“只要永远温柔耐心就能得到完美的关系永远不会吵架怨恨冲突”,这明显是卖假药的啊,立刻让TA滚就行。

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这就是为什么 All drama is family drama. 没有抓马的饭米粒是不存在的,没有饭米粒抓马的故事是没人要看的。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Judy
Posts: 725
Joined: 2009-07-16 19:25

Re: Zz 你妈注定让你抓狂

Post by Judy » 2020-01-04 17:13

Jun不亏是老师傅,看得明白。我和我妈关系好是因为特殊原因,我们一起经历了人生起伏和亲人生死;自此以后,风淡云轻,说说八卦逛逛街,活着就好,铁或是钢都无所谓。我见过有家庭经历了类似的,分崩离析,兄弟姐妹自此完全不联系。每家人都有每家人的境遇,自己觉得舒服就是最好的关系。

在我检讨和女儿的关系时,更多地是对自己不能管理情绪的不满,对于她是否需要或是能够成为最好的自己,我自己都对这个问题很困惑,只能和她讨论着来,倒是有些共同成长的意味。

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