[读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

入得谷来,祸福自求。
Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2019-09-26 20:52

刚才刷牙时忽然脑子里的线又随机搭上了。老子(不是我)推崇的理想社会,鸡犬相闻而老死不相往来,这不就是系统崩溃后的状态吗?Low density, low socioeconomic integration, 人口分散,生产效率低,无秩序的 dark age。这太合逻辑了。显然是对于崩溃后社会的记忆和描述呀。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

april
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by april » 2019-09-27 0:43

系统崩溃以后的社会不会是老子描述的“鸡犬相闻。。。”。

宋史里面有讲,南宋和蒙古联手灭了和北宋曾有血海深仇的金以后,蒙古人回草原上参加盟会。南宋心痒难搔,没人啦?!要不要把开封洛阳趁机都收回来呢?要是蒙古人突然回来呢?估计打不过?!

但是因为蒙古人一走好几年,南宋后来还是没忍住派兵回了北方。后来蒙古人回来小打了一下,但是南宋军队灰溜溜回了江南主要是被饿回来的。曾经那么繁华的开封啊长安啊(想象一下清明上河图)荒无人烟,断井残垣。没有人也没有粮食。更没有鸡和犬了。。。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2019-09-27 7:19

不是为了杠哈 ...

考虑到人类和细菌的共性,空旷无人的地区,如果不继续打仗,会迅速地被人渗透进来的,建立新的 colony。黑暗->繁荣->拥挤->崩溃->黑暗的循环,在各地都反复重演。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2020-03-12 15:38

买了 Eric Cline 教授的 Three Stones Make a Wall 之后翻开几页,搁置了好久(去看日本武侠小说了),现在又回去看了,有什么有趣内容我就贴这儿了。

前两章讲庞贝和Troy算是比较熟悉的了,第三章讲古埃及让我很欣喜,因为上次去纽约大都会博物馆里逛了一下埃及馆,总算对于埃及的二三十个朝代略微有点儿概念。教授大部分时候挺严肃的,但偶尔会来一句冷笑话,例如在描述木乃伊制作方法的时候:
Even today, many people try their hand at mummifying things, frequently as a school project in elementary school. This usually involves chickens, rather than a person or a family pet (unless, of course, the family pet happens to be a chicken).
:lol: :lol:

最早的木乃伊远至3500BCE,即5500年前。除了心脏之外,所有的内脏都要挖出来分开存放,好让死者留在阴间幸福生活。但是脑子,啊,who needs that crap,用钩子伸进去搅碎了拉出来,或者注入强酸融化成液体倒出来,扔掉! :headscratch:
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2020-03-14 14:25

激动!书里讲到 Ur 古墓(现伊拉克境内),尤其点名 Penn Museum 里面的宝物,有些我已经看过了。Ur 的王室墓穴里经常有陪葬人祭,在 Penn 里有示意图。Cline 说 2009年做的透视发现有些陪葬者的死法相当精确,用尖棒插入脑后耳朵下部位,instant death。显然当时的死亡技术很高明。杀人陪葬这个风俗在古中国也有,不免疑心二者之间有没有什么关联。Ur 的王墓是 2500 BCE.

这里提到 Agatha Christie 的考古学丈夫 Mallowan ,此人在考古学里还挺有名的,是最初发掘 Ur 的主持人之一。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Knowing
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Knowing » 2020-03-14 16:34

没想到阿婆的丈夫还意外出镜。那阿婆那时候跟团陪考察是去这里?
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2020-03-14 16:50

Cline 教授很八卦的,详细解释了阿婆的 involvement. 阿婆本来去伊拉克是出于对考古的兴趣,在 Ur 挖古迹的主要是两个英国考古学家, Woolley 和 Mallowan. 阿婆去了之后就跟 Mallowan 搞上了恋爱,当时她40岁,对方 26。但是他俩好了之后被考古团踢了出来。为什么呢?传言是,阿婆在男员工之中风头太劲了,Woolley 的太太很不爽自己的地位被动摇了,就把她赶走了。Mallowan 只好换到别处去挖(好像去了埃及)。

但阿婆也不是吃素的,在小说 Murder in Mesopotamia 里面写了一个美女露易丝迅速被杀,原型就是 Lady Katherine Woolley. (妈呀他真够八的。)
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2020-03-15 17:12

美索不达米亚这一章结尾时有一句话,让我浮想联翩:
The archaeology and textual work done in Mesopotamia has shed light on the origins of Western-complex culture and the way such early beginnings largely shaped how our societies function today, from politics and laws to mathematics, medicine, education, taxes, and everything in between.
可惜就这么一句,也没详细阐述,看得我心痒难搔。这一章前面的部分有提到,他们在好几处古迹挖出大量刻字泥板,都是苏美尔楔形文字(几个国家共用)。上面有极详细的政治经济宗教甚至文学记录,例如世界上最早的史诗 Epic of Gilgamesh。言辞之间暗示四五千年前的政经法制系统跟现代有极大相似之处——不,也不是故意暗示,而是随口说了几句而已。

我们早就被教育,现代的社会构成建立在2500年前古希腊和罗马的传统之上,然而显然古希腊和罗马的组织结构也不是凭空发明的,而是直接继承了美索不达米亚地区,包括巴比伦、苏美尔、Assyria、Hittite 等各个帝国的丰富历史和文化。

然后呢?就没有然后了。他的意思就是内容太多了来不及写于是一笔带过! :gromit_thought:
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

笑嘻嘻
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2020-03-16 0:42

我有个问题。科学家喜欢说蚂蚁蜜蜂的社会性都是在基因中写好的。那为什么不说人类社会的社会性是基因中写好的?如果4、5千年前的社会跟现在的很相似。
云浆未饮结成冰

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2020-03-16 8:17

笑嘻嘻 wrote:
2020-03-16 0:42
我有个问题。科学家喜欢说蚂蚁蜜蜂的社会性都是在基因中写好的。那为什么不说人类社会的社会性是基因中写好的?如果4、5千年前的社会跟现在的很相似。
四五千年的某些社会(美索不达米亚地区)跟现在的大部分社会(欧洲国家传至北美传至大部分工业国家)形式相似,但是四五千年的另一些社会形式(目前正读到玛雅考古一章)已经消失在历史的烟云里。这说明古代与现代的相似来自记忆和记录,而非基因。我猜想可能苏美尔文字的发明是当时当地文化得到传承并发扬光大的主要原因。没有文字记录,全靠口头记忆的社会结构相对比较脆弱。

再次感叹一下,中东地区是现代文明的摇篮,领先全世界所有人,这真是铁板钉钉的事实啊。宫崎市定很多年前去西天取经(不)就立刻接受了西亚地区是文明起源,大叔果然是唯物主义者。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

Knowing
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Knowing » 2020-03-18 17:09

Jun wrote:
2020-03-14 16:50
Cline 教授很八卦的,详细解释了阿婆的 involvement. 阿婆本来去伊拉克是出于对考古的兴趣,在 Ur 挖古迹的主要是两个英国考古学家, Woolley 和 Mallowan. 阿婆去了之后就跟 Mallowan 搞上了恋爱,当时她40岁,对方 26。但是他俩好了之后被考古团踢了出来。为什么呢?传言是,阿婆在男员工之中风头太劲了,Woolley 的太太很不爽自己的地位被动摇了,就把她赶走了。Mallowan 只好换到别处去挖(好像去了埃及)。

但阿婆也不是吃素的,在小说 Murder in Mesopotamia 里面写了一个美女露易丝迅速被杀,原型就是 Lady Katherine Woolley. (妈呀他真够八的。)
我好奇把这本找出来又看了一遍,哎嘛,骂人骂得这么狠这么精彩,真是只有阿婆做的到。
Nevertheless, she persisted.

Jun
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Re: [读书] 1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed

Post by Jun » 2020-03-19 7:31

昨晚把玛雅那一章看完了,心向往之,恨不得立刻订个文化旅游团带去 Tikal 看遗址。 结束前作者说玛雅帝国的崩溃到现在仍有很多争议,比较流行的理论是 climate change,但是也有不少证据支持 overpopulation 和 deforestation。(我心想好嘛,咱现代社会几样都占全了。)最大可能性是几个因素互相作用联合起来导致的,又说要说玛雅崩溃的研究能写一整本书。(你倒是写啊!)

玛雅人民特别发达的时期实际上只有七百年(200 到 900 CE),之前和之后都是低调存在的状态,我个人觉得与其把崩溃看作是历史突发事件,不如把帝国时期看作是历史突发事件。想起 Jared Diamond 提过的当地粮食生产力的限制(尤其是没有铁器),也许这七百年就是气候特别风调雨顺的短期好运,过了就没了。

好奇去搜了一下文字系统,发现 Maya, Inca, Aztec 所用文字都是不一样的,很不一样,好像没啥相通交流之处而是各发明各的。说明各个主要部落之间没有很多交换。嗯,这是一个巨坑,我先别跳进去了。
There was nothing to warn anyone about. The world went on, even as it fell apart, changed irrevocably, became something strange and different. --- "Acceptance" in The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer

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