那不勒斯四部曲读后

入得谷来,祸福自求。
april
Posts: 1173
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

那不勒斯四部曲读后

Post by april » 2019-04-03 15:43

尽最大努力不剧透的来写一篇读后感。希望谷里的同学都去看,真是非常好非常值得的一种阅读体验。剧也推荐,可以当前菜,剧拍得很忠于原著。
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Elena Ferrante这名字在纽约客出现过几次。我知道这是个意大利的”匿名作家“。顶着这个笔名写了一系列畅销小说。那不勒斯四部曲(neapolitan novels)是最新的一个系列,也是最红的。而且小说以女性视角来写。据说功力非凡。史无前例。更有意思是作者坚决不露面。只有TA的编辑知道其真面目。所以大家沸沸扬扬猜来猜去。甚至有人说是位男作家冒着女人的名字写的(这是有多大男子主义啊!写的好的小说就一定是男性作家?!!)

最近四部曲被翻译成了中文,豆瓣上常看到大家在推荐。我也一直存了心要去读。但是一直没有做到。去年感恩节假期的时候,发现HBO在播一个新剧”我的天才女友“(My Brilliant Friend)第一季。就是根据四部曲改编的。看了半集就爱上了。拉上妈妈一起看。后来连小人都兴致勃勃跟我们追了几集。我猜因为第一季里两个主人公女孩子在小学,有很多小学生们打架吵架的情节小人很有共鸣。因为还在联播,一直追到十二月中期才看完第一季。不甘心等剧了解下文。在等每个礼拜更新的时候就买了Kindle 版,哗哗哗看得手不释卷。剧追完了书也看完了。真好看啊!好像我所有的按钮都被这书按了一遍。爽得不得了。

从来没有读过更深刻更直面现实更细致的描述女性成长的书。不仅是女性间的友谊,还包含了为人母,为人妻,为人情妇,以及性向。写作风格也是独具一格。真是当得起”史无前例“这个评语。诚实,直接,而且感人。I’ve never seen anyone else writing about being a woman like the author has done.

故事讲的那不勒斯一个贫民区里两个女孩子一生的友谊。时间跨度从五十年到到八十年代。很多地方,她们的生活跟我们生长的中国好像啊。其中一个女孩子后来离开那不勒斯去米兰/翡冷翠读书成家,当时她面对的文化冲击,简直像极了我离开中国到美国时的情形。书中人物对待政治(那不勒斯/意大利的政局)也很像我记忆力中国孩子对待政治的态度。都是不可信的但是又无法摆脱或者改变。总是带着怀疑的滤镜。

以前听说过意大利的Red Brigades. 但是主流媒体好像都没有详细报道过Red Brigades变成这么暴力的起因,也就是他们对抗的法西斯们有多暴力。这些细节让我想到如今的美国和西欧。不寒而栗。

意大利是多么奇怪的一个国家,几乎跟中国一样奇怪一样暴力。。。
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纽约客上各种有关报道

The New York Review of Books: Italy's Great, Mysterious Storyteller
纽约客剧评之一: A Prada Ad for Working-Class Gloom, but with Shades of Humble Tenderness
The language is Italian and its dialects. The genre is neorealist melodrama, with a sumptuous nostalgia for the Golden Age films of Roberto Rossellini, Vittorio De Sica, and Luchino Visconti. The costumes and art, with their deep colors and stylized shabbiness and sumptuous austerity, are like a Prada ad for working-class gloom. The bricklayer’s son seethes about economic injustice while sporting an excellent maroon turtleneck. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: The atmosphere is thick in a way that sometimes verges on self-parody and sometimes feels appropriate amid the ferocity of the friendship between Elena and Lila and the intensity of the adult intrigues as the children understand them. Tales of adultery and usury roll down to their ears by way of gossip, misheard whispers, and cautionary folklore, and they snowball into thrilling myth. Beneath the show’s heavy coats of operatic varnish and prestige-TV enamel, it demonstrates a humble tenderness.
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两个女孩子小时候的居民楼。我觉得跟我从小住的苏联老大哥帮忙建的宿舍楼好像!

刚看了一篇作者访谈,这段话很好的描述了本书。我当初推荐给好朋友时,她也问这书/剧是不是很暴力?我当时一愣。剧/书中的情绪很暴力,但是并不是美国电影那种暴力,因为几乎是不见血的。但是情节很“暴力”人物情绪也是。
I’m comforted by stories that emerge through horror to a turning point, stories in which someone is redeemed as confirmation that peace and happiness are possible, or that one can return to a private or public Eden. But I tried to write a story like that, long ago, and I discovered that I didn’t believe in it. I’m drawn, rather, to images of crisis, to seals that are broken. When shapes lose their contours, we see what most terrifies us, as in Ovid’s “Metamorphoses,” Kafka’s “Metamorphosis,” and Clarice Lispector’s extraordinary “Passion According to G.H.” You don’t go beyond that; you have to take a step back and, to survive, reënter some good fiction. I don’t believe, however, that every fiction we orchestrate is good. I cling to those that are painful, those that arise from a profound crisis of all our illusions. I love unreal things when they show signs of firsthand knowledge of the terror, and hence an awareness that they are unreal, that they will not hold up for long against the collisions. Human beings are extremely violent animals, and the violence they are always ready to use in order to impose their own eternal, salvific life vest, while shattering those of others, is frightening.
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-tu ... a-ferrante
Last edited by april on 2019-05-21 18:48, edited 2 times in total.
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-04-03 18:30

太好了,你慢慢写,细细写,我先去看一会儿剧。 :-)

Jun
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Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-03 20:35

四部曲!总共有多长? :worthy:
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
Posts: 1173
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-03 20:58

Jun wrote:
2019-04-03 20:35
四部曲!总共有多长? :worthy:
差不多总共1700页,第一本331,第二 471, 第三 480, 第四 400
非常易读。我基本上第一本跳过去因为看了剧,挑了几幕看剧没太看懂的读了。后面三本一口气读完的。里面情节的反转再反转经常惊得我,这也可以?!
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
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Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-04-03 22:51

四月同学为了不剧透,真是煞费苦心 :mrgreen: 我就是很想跟你讨论渣男的!!

我是去年圣诞假期回国的飞机上开读这套书的,有读者说这是我们这个时代的“战争与和平”,我觉得恰如其分,史诗般的故事。不仅仅是人物形象引人入胜,时代背景也激动人心。

april
Posts: 1173
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-03 23:39

putaopi wrote:
2019-04-03 22:51
四月同学为了不剧透,真是煞费苦心 :mrgreen: 我就是很想跟你讨论渣男的!!
哈哈哈!我当初刚开始看剧就去豆瓣混讨论区被剧透一脸。但是也看到这个,乐死了,于是更加急吼吼想知道渣男怎么渣的。“刚看完书过来,在原著的几本书的讨论区都有人建群说要一起骂一骂XX这个渣男,因为实在渣出天际 渣出高度,连索拉拉被他称的讨人喜欢起来”
putaopi wrote:
2019-04-03 22:51
我是去年圣诞假期回国的飞机上开读这套书的,有读者说这是我们这个时代的“战争与和平”,我觉得恰如其分,史诗般的故事。不仅仅是人物形象引人入胜,时代背景也激动人心。
"战争与和平“也这么好看?也许我该再去试试也许现在能读下去了?
是的,读起来就像是意大利现代史。lila可以从鞋匠的女儿到屠宰场工人到IT startup老板我觉得这跨度简直大的让人嘡目结舌。但是却又合情合理。整个小区的经济命脉虽有起伏却像一张渔网无论她们怎么挣扎都束缚着她们,简直让人绝望。在这种大背景下却又可以细细描绘Lila的作文,她对伊利亚特的见解,这种绚烂的诗情画意可以和”阶级斗争“共存,而且共存的如此之协调。叹为观止。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
Posts: 3522
Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-04-04 9:58

april wrote:
2019-04-03 23:39

哈哈哈!我当初刚开始看剧就去豆瓣混讨论区被剧透一脸。但是也看到这个,乐死了,于是更加急吼吼想知道渣男怎么渣的。“刚看完书过来,在原著的几本书的讨论区都有人建群说要一起骂一骂XX这个渣男,因为实在渣出天际 渣出高度,连索拉拉被他称的讨人喜欢起来”
古语说,就怕流氓有文化 :mrgreen: 我第二部看得不仔细,Elena 对渣男的obessesion很大程度上是sexual的,所以我觉得她求仁得仁,疹子发过了,也就放下了。Lina 我就不太明白,算是天真幼稚?她一向对男性都是当做打开新天地,挣扎出去的一条道路,并不享受男女情爱。

幻儿
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 幻儿 » 2019-04-04 10:18

我也看见好几个女朋友倾力推荐这套书,于是借了第一本书来看。确实很好,但我并没有那么震动,可能因为第一部书是童年和青少年,故事刚刚展开吧。下面是我当时写的读后感。有剧透,希望跟读过的人交流。

This book was highly recommended by a friend and I am glad I read it. I enjoyed the characters, the storyline and the writing. The first of the quartet, this book is a coming-of-age story about two girls, Elena and Lila. The first part of this book describes their childhood, centering around the ogre of the neighborhood -- Don Achille. This part reminds me of To Kill a Mockingbird where kids are also warned about a certain "monster" in the neighborhood. Only, in To Kill a Mockingbird, the monster turned out to be a good man who saved children, and in this book, Don Achille was murdered, brutally. It was the first shock to me -- although the author is brilliant in setting the background and the tone for the story with all kinds of casual violence and death, I didn't expect murder to be depicted in vivid detail by a child. I was reminded harshly that it was indeed a dark and brutal world, and our Elena and Lila's innocence was lost with the murder.

The second part of the book describes their adolescent years and centers around the shoes that Lila designed. As most teenagers, Elena and Lila struggled to find their own identities. It's during this period that Elena went to middle school and would continue her education, concerning herself with abstract questions such as what is the holy spirit, whereas Lila started to work at the family's shoe repair shop and she expressed herself through shoe designing. They also struggled sexually. Elena was sexually assaulted by a much older man Donato Sarratore and Lila was pursued by multiple men but had to settle for someone she didn't particularly like in order to escape the man she absolutely couldn't stand. The book ended with a wedding, which should be a happy event, but it ended with Elena realizing that she had to get away from these people, and Lila seeing the shoes that she designed, the symbol of her dream and ambition, which was given to her husband, was being worn by the man she detested. It was a slap on her face and we know that a storm was coming.

A twist that I didn't expect is on the title character, my brilliant friend -- I thought it refers to Lila, because the narrator obviously adores her, but turned out that it's Lila, who called Elena "my brilliant friend." It's an interesting revelation. I started to ask myself, did I pay too much attention to Lila and not paying enough attention to Elena, our narrator? It's almost like when reading The Great Gatsby, suddenly you realize, wait a minute, the Great Gatsby is Nick, the narrator! That shifts the perspective of the entire book! I think the author did this intentionally and I would definitely pay more attention to Elena in the next book.

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-04 10:19

putaopi wrote:
2019-04-04 9:58
古语说,就怕流氓有文化 :mrgreen: 我第二部看得不仔细,Elena 对渣男的obessesion很大程度上是sexual的,所以我觉得她求仁得仁,疹子发过了,也就放下了。Lina 我就不太明白,算是天真幼稚?她一向对男性都是当做打开新天地,挣扎出去的一条道路,并不享受男女情爱。
Elena成年后的沦陷是因为性。但是少年的时候跟Lina一样都是看上了”文化“吧?年轻不懂事的女孩子都好这一口!那么酷那么有文化的渣杀伤力太大。Lina也觉得渣男打开了新天地吧?在智力和知识上面也许lina第一次觉得棋逢对手。其实私底下渣男勤学苦练的想追得上lina。貌似lina一辈子都没有享受过性爱,是不是?这个Elena要幸运得多了。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

april
Posts: 1173
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-04 10:34

幻儿 wrote:
2019-04-04 10:18

This book was highly recommended by a friend and I am glad I read it. I enjoyed the characters, the storyline and the writing. The first of the quartet, this book is a coming-of-age story about two girls, Elena and Lila. The first part of this book describes their childhood, centering around the ogre of the neighborhood -- Don Achille. This part reminds me of To Kill a Mockingbird where kids are also warned about a certain "monster" in the neighborhood. Only, in To Kill a Mockingbird, the monster turned out to be a good man who saved children, and in this book, Don Achille was murdered, brutally. It was the first shock to me -- although the author is brilliant in setting the background and the tone for the story with all kinds of casual violence and death, I didn't expect murder to be depicted in vivid detail by a child. I was reminded harshly that it was indeed a dark and brutal world, and our Elena and Lila's innocence was lost with the murder.
I've always wondered whether the vivid description of the murder was meant as a fact or as a showcase for Lina's imagination. The TV series did an excellent job of this sequence. The visual was much more powerful than what i would have imagined reading the book alone. Maybe because i wasn't familiar with the kind of cooking utensils in an Napoli family at the time. From this aspect i think the TV series enhanced the visual of the book, similar to "Arrival" enhanced the alien language comparing to "The story of your life".

Somehow i don't find the murder being the highlight of the first book. There were so many unexpected moments that i found myself being constantly in shock: Lina threw Elena's doll into the basement, Lina's dad threw her out of the window, Melina fell down the stairs fighting with Donato's wife, like the author said, real life is full of violence, and the book seems to highlight that fact.
幻儿 wrote:
2019-04-04 10:18
A twist that I didn't expect is on the title character, my brilliant friend -- I thought it refers to Lila, because the narrator obviously adores her, but turned out that it's Lila, who called Elena "my brilliant friend." It's an interesting revelation. I started to ask myself, did I pay too much attention to Lila and not paying enough attention to Elena, our narrator? It's almost like when reading The Great Gatsby, suddenly you realize, wait a minute, the Great Gatsby is Nick, the narrator! That shifts the perspective of the entire book! I think the author did this intentionally and I would definitely pay more attention to Elena in the next book.
That was a brilliant twist! The subsequent books would talk more about the intertwined lives of these two. The up and down's of their friendship. I'm fascinated by all the little devious thoughts they held toward each other, the rivalry of a female relationship was so vivid in this series. For this alone, i couldn't image a male writer navigate these nuances so effortlessly. The author has to be a "SHE"! :)
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
Posts: 3522
Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-04-04 10:39

幻儿 wrote:
2019-04-04 10:18
我也看见好几个女朋友倾力推荐这套书,于是借了第一本书来看。确实很好,但我并没有那么震动,可能因为第一部书是童年和青少年,故事刚刚展开吧。下面是我当时写的读后感。有剧透,希望跟读过的人交流。
幻儿读得好细,继续读后面的几本吧,我觉得这些孩子们长大之后的生活和纠葛让人物更圆满了,她们的人生角色也和时代背景一起不断地演变。个人来说,做为女性,女儿,和一个小女孩的妈妈,就像四月说的那样,这本书把我的hot buttons 都摸遍了。

星光
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 星光 » 2019-04-05 10:22

啊我特别喜欢这套书,连续熬夜花了一个星期看完了。
作者笔力了得,很有书中所描述的莉拉的天才风采,一众人物刻画得叫人牵肠挂肚。且坦白得惊人,一点隐瞒也没有,心里的边角全部摊开在亮处。幻儿说的那个twist我感受是一样一样的,只是到了第二本好像还是忍不住更加注意莉拉。

意大利人仿佛特别擅长创作普通人的史诗,我很喜欢的电影长片The best of youth,虽然风格不同,也是其中翘楚。

april
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Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-05 11:30

星光 wrote:
2019-04-05 10:22
啊我特别喜欢这套书,连续熬夜花了一个星期看完了。
作者笔力了得,很有书中所描述的莉拉的天才风采,一众人物刻画得叫人牵肠挂肚。且坦白得惊人,一点隐瞒也没有,心里的边角全部摊开在亮处。幻儿说的那个twist我感受是一样一样的,只是到了第二本好像还是忍不住更加注意莉拉。

意大利人仿佛特别擅长创作普通人的史诗,我很喜欢的电影长片The best of youth,虽然风格不同,也是其中翘楚。
啊!我这块砖又炸出来一块玉。我刚开始看的时候在谷里搜旧帖,觉得居然没人讨论过好像很不可思议。这书跟恶人谷应该很般配才对。 :mrgreen:

我也喜欢The Best of Youth! 星光这么一说,才发现真是这样!一直记得纽约客Anthony Lane那篇评。原来Lane不刻薄的时候可以这么温柔。 :heartpump:
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/cri ... rci_cinema
"This is how people find love in “The Best of Youth.” They meet in a small kitchen, where one of them calls the other a klutz for not being able to work the coffee machine. They talk about college, and exchange a look. That’s it. And this is how people make out: they fumble warmly in a car, beside a phone booth, with no music surging to their aid; unless you count the Roman rain outside, with its soft percussive beat.“
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

Jun
Posts: 24401
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-05 13:46

我记得在谷里写过The Best of Youth 的,很久很久之前了。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
Posts: 1173
Joined: 2010-03-21 21:12

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-05 14:01

果然!哇!06年!怪不得我没看过
http://bjvwkzh.fabvalley.org/viewtopic.php?t=1596
Jun 居然认为男主一般般?Matteo很帅啊!
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

Jun
Posts: 24401
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-29 19:00

刚看了两集 My Brilliant Friend 剧集,很棒,感觉特真实特 raw。暴力有点多,但是考虑到这是 Napoli ... 虽然是从孩子的角度叙述的,但里面的成年人也很真实,例如 Lenu 的妈妈,对大女儿的嫉妒和操持家里四个孩子一个丈夫的疲惫。大院儿的感觉好中国啊。

让我联想起一个朋友说过的事儿。她爸妈是罗马地方的人,六十年代移民到美国,那时候她九岁。她爸爸家里很穷,本来没打算让他上大学的,反正没钱供,但是他的老师惊叹于他的聪明,坚决推他去参加大学考试。因为成绩太好了,政府出奖学金送他上大学,而且一定要念很有用处的化学工程。后来他来美国深造搞科研,在联邦政府工作了几十年(哪个部门忘记了,总之是科技部门)。老伴先他去世之后,老头肾衰竭拒绝做透析,住 nursing home 里,脑子开始变糊涂,生命的最后两年只说意大利语,完全不说英语,虽然他完全能听懂周围的护士说英语,甚至以为自己在说英语,实际上出口的是意大利语,有要紧事需要交流时护士只能打电话给我朋友让她翻译。这时候他有时会跟女儿说起一些旧事,有一次忽然说除了你叔叔ABC和姑妈谁谁,我还有个妹妹叫啥啥,小时候生病,没及时治疗死了。我朋友说,一辈子从来没听他提起过,但听着象是真事儿。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-29 20:30

啊!Jun吃了我们的安利!开心!:)
既然能看下来前两集,接下来就越来越好看了,随着她们长大,剧情越来越抓马!
Lenu后来的道路也跟Jun这个朋友的爸爸有点相似啊。国家出钱培养科学人才好像在欧洲很流行?是不是“社会主义”制度倾向决定的?我前同事法国人他父母就是为国家做科研(好像还是跟国防有关?)做了一辈子。听他们讲年轻时的事情让我好惊讶,怎么这么像我父母辈的故事!

看剧时这个比较有用,否则那几家孩子老分不清谁是谁。。。
最全的人物表(附有影视原图)
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-30 8:19

有用!看了图解我才终于搞清楚哪个是 Gigliola。

Don Achille 的太太和 Pasquale 这两位演员看着忒眼熟,有可能在别的意大利剧里看见过,也或者长得象哪个名演员。

可以听出一点点跟“官话”不同的口音,感觉他们努力说土话了。

少年时期的演员们其实有点老了,看着至少十七八了要演十四五岁,有几个明显二十以上(Antonio, Marcello)。不过主要的几个选得跟小演员很象。

看得出 Elena 本来就很聪明,好好学习一下,考试成绩就上去了,并不比 Lila 差。但 Lila 带有人格上的光辉,让 Lenu (和其他人)仰慕不已。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

tiffany
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by tiffany » 2019-04-30 11:36

我终于下定决心开始读莎士比亚了。不知道啥时候会放弃。望广大人民群众监督。
有酒有酒 闲饮东窗

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-30 12:06

tiffany wrote:
2019-04-30 11:36
我终于下定决心开始读莎士比亚了。不知道啥时候会放弃。望广大人民群众监督。
白博打算从哪一部剧开始?要不然我俩另开一贴专门讨论?
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

笑嘻嘻
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2019-04-30 12:18

开!
遇见你这么美好的事
像森林听见风声
像黑夜缠绕星辰
------- 肖达

tiffany
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by tiffany » 2019-04-30 12:28

罗密欧与朱丽叶,我被那句 this violent delight has violdent end 给打动了
有酒有酒 闲饮东窗

豪情
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 豪情 » 2019-04-30 12:44

羞愧地说, 我只读过中文的全集,英文的都是支离破碎读的。我觉得最好还是看表演吧。 才最传神。
却将万字平戎策 换得东家种树书

tiffany
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by tiffany » 2019-04-30 13:01

My attention span is too short for theater :gros_yeux_tristes:
有酒有酒 闲饮东窗

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-04-30 19:42

剧集给我的感觉是 ... 不管什么样的现实主义的叙述,到了意大利艺术家的笔下都变成 grand opera,不知怎么的就搞成了大撒狗血的爱恨情仇。某男生追女未果,也要闹得整个街坊鸡飞狗跳;某女生追男未果,也要连带害得几个备胎神魂颠倒。说实话我时刻都等待哪个人物掏出一把刀捅了谁谁。This is not a criticism, but it's really weird. 也许拿波里的现实生活就是这样,我只是没见识过?瑞典剧/小说里即使是连环杀手砍头肢解的情节,也是灰蒙蒙惨淡淡,而意大利剧里上个学谈个恋爱也心惊肉跳的。Everything is so f**king lavish, yet I get the feeling it's totally unintentional.
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-04-30 21:32

Jun不要急,被捅的人会有的,面包也会有的。。。 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-01 10:38

看完了HBO剧,很好看,很期待下一季。氛围真的很象我小时候,随机冷漠无处不在的暴力,大人们灰暗倦怠,小孩子顽韧孤独。逃课那段勾起了很多回忆,和要好的女同学多次逃课,有一次逃出去逛商店居然遇到我父母。。。

被此帖的“天才”“风采”等字眼挑高了期望值,反倒不觉得Lila人格魅力有特别之处。叙事主角最多的关注都落在她身上,她很勇敢,她的勇敢来自于她的愤怒。这样的野玫瑰,每个颓败小区至少都会有一个,代代不绝。强劲的生命之火在愤怒的助燃下,熊熊地烧灼,早燃早熄,很快,留下一块焦炭。也许小说给人感觉不同?

既然故事横跨几十年,那么估计还不能就把老套路以嫁人为出路的Lila给划掉,她们的小学老师好像就把Lila给划掉了。她应该还很有戏!不知道是不是坚守出生地带领乡亲们移风易俗?对应离开去了繁华大世界的Lenu? 那啥地说,Lila改变不了社区的,再耀眼的火也烧不透那灰蒙蒙的世界。她可以拯救自己个人,方法是肉身离开。社区的改变不可能从内部滋生,只能来自外部强大力量的扫过。我的悲观想法也是套路,期待作者来打破它!

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-05-01 14:34

确实,观众把目光集中在 Lila 身上,很大一部分是作者叙述角度的操纵效果,我一边看一边好奇 Lila 看 Lenu 时脑子里的想法和感受。即使如此,我仍被 Lenu 的感情生活的复杂性(Gino! Nino! Alfonso! Antonio! Donato!)惊呆了,这才十五岁!这还是女二! :shock: :shock:

目前文艺界在热闹地讨论 the female rage,希望不要变成一阵热风吹过就算了。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-01 20:22

Alfonso?!我没看出来 :verysad:

总之,叙事角度很有意思,是女一加上帝视角。有些戏女一女二都不在场,我们观众却看见了。

刚拿到第二本书开始读。小说文笔比起电视剧要急切,冲突感更强。对话不打冒号引号, 第一次见,有效营造了急迫感。有意思。

小说里女一内心活动丰富,层次立体,有看头。她看女二,都是打着柔光的, 女二的进化几乎全是单因素线性推进, 相比其实是单薄的—-这不能怪作者,了解另一个人毕竟是难,即便是这么好的朋友。因此和女一形成反差也挺好。两人的 compare and contrast 本来就是故事的主要推进器之一。

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-05-01 21:27

Alfonso是弯密!

十五岁女孩子的感情生活复杂难道不是很正常的?为赋新词强说愁好像很普遍?明恋暗恋再加上拒掉没兴趣的男孩子好像都是常发生的?
Helen开始看书了! :admir002: :admir002: :admir002: 开心!
跟书相比剧的节奏是有点慢。但是觉得她们的服装很不错。。。
Last edited by april on 2019-05-03 16:16, edited 2 times in total.
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 星光 » 2019-05-02 1:56

好像前面是我用了天才风采这个词,哈哈,不过这倒不是我的评价,是书里lenu反复提到lila写东西有某种特殊的天分,而我觉得作者本身的文风倒是颇有Lenu所描述的这种风采。

剧我是看完书以后才看的,可能因为太贴近原著了,所有觉得不错但是也没有迫切想看完的心情,还剩两集呢。

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-05-02 13:41

边看剧边有个感觉,Lila 的文采恐怕是作者自道吧。看完第一季更是猜想:Lenu 和 Lila 给我某种镜像的感觉,都是说作者自己吧?说到人生经历,作者显然是靠着升学逃离了憋闷压抑的环境的 Elena,但 Lila 多半是她的小伙伴们的浓缩,以及她自己分裂出的一部分,而不是具体有一个原型的人物。

Lila 的愤怒和反抗,我估计来自作者本人的愤怒和反抗,她被困住的命运,是作者见证幼年伙伴们以及想象自己的 alternative life,捏合出来的。

正因为小说的设定采用一个人的视角,而 Lila 是从外界描绘的,不必揭示每个细微转折的念头,才让作者能糅合很多不同来源的材料在一个人身上。

把 female rage 从自己身上分裂出来描述,其实是非常合乎逻辑的做法。We are afraid of own our aggression, our anger, our hate, our rage.
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

幻儿
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 幻儿 » 2019-05-02 13:52

对,小说创作嘛,又不是人物传记,叙述者(narrator)和Lila都是合成的虚构人物,可能作者本身的经历和想法更贴近叙述者。
而想象alternative option在小说里也很常见,比如《傲慢与偏见》里,作者现实生活中拒绝了Mr. Collins,在小说里用女主的视角描写了为什么拒绝,但同时她让女主最好的朋友接受Mr. Collins,并且也给出理由。

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-05-06 7:06

周末把第二部小说哗哗哗看了一大半。果然是 unputdownable 的风格。

两个女孩子的个性行为都很真实可信,虽然采用有限角度来描绘 Lila,但很贴心地提供了“后来我看她的日记里说 ...”的直接描述。I am not entirely sure it's the best method ... compared with Sarah Waters' dual narrators.

可以理解为什么两个女孩子都被 Nino 吸引。这一切都那么符合逻辑。

至少第二部里面没那么暴力的感觉,虽然经常有打打老婆的情节,但还好没有随时要捅人的情景。
Last edited by Jun on 2019-05-06 8:45, edited 2 times in total.
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-06 8:35

Jun wrote:
2019-05-02 13:41
Lila 的愤怒和反抗,我估计来自作者本人的愤怒和反抗,她被困住的命运,是作者见证幼年伙伴们以及想象自己的 alternative life,捏合出来的。

正因为小说的设定采用一个人的视角,而 Lila 是从外界描绘的,不必揭示每个细微转折的念头,才让作者能糅合很多不同来源的材料在一个人身上。

把 female rage 从自己身上分裂出来描述,其实是非常合乎逻辑的做法。We are afraid of own our aggression, our anger, our hate, our rage.
太对了。

Lenu身上作为一个observer的禀赋,始终是故事推进的重要工具,不停地自问:她为什么这样?为什么那样?不停地代入周边人物,不停地出于好奇去探究周边人物。甚至在一处对自己说:我太专注于Lila了,忽略了对Marisa的观察。。。活脱脱是天生的作家。电视剧里,则无数次在一个交锋冲突场景结束后,镜头转向在场的沉默的Lenu.

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-05-06 22:26

看完了 The Story of a New Name. 我得歇会儿再看下一本。

Lenu 的故事对我们比较有共鸣,通过读书考试爬上阶级的阶梯。Lila 的故事更加肥皂剧一些,咱也没法判断是不是真实,不过我仍然有种强烈的镜像感觉,她俩的挣扎其实是同一个目的,都是为了逃离那个社区大院儿。她俩之间的差异也没有叙述者强调的那么大,实际上很多地方是合二为一的。

越到后半部分越明显 Lenu 的部分比较好看,因为 the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself. 其实很明显 Lila 也是有内心冲突和相反的欲望,但作者太过强调她的坚定勇气的一面,还要刻意跟 Lenu 对比,令她少一些层次。也许是故意的,我们可以将之归结于 Lenu's unreliable narration.

Lenu 一直自我催眠说她的嫉妒之情都是针对 Lila 的,评论们纷纷重复学舌这一点。但我有不同感受,事实上 Lenu 最酸最苦最不忿的言语是针对阶级和性别分割的,反而说起女友的才华时十分坦然。当然她把 Nino 抢去了,这是普通的 sexual jealousy ,在这个意大利街坊里简直是家常便饭。我不能完全肯定作者是故意讽刺知识分子和大学教授等等,成天高谈阔论世界形势共产主义之类但是对身边的穷孩子学生连伸手拉一把都没想过。Lenu 敬仰的教授和他们的孩子,大多数都一边给她优等分数一边叫她去考中学教师,而没她成绩好的男同学因为 privilege 背景而直升教授之类。竞争抢夺资源最凶的是一无所有的底层群众彼此之间,正因为机会少得可怜才需要抢几块骨头。Ada 跟 Lila 抢丈夫,Lila 跟 Lenu 抢一个瘦兮兮的斯文渣男,Carmela 跟 Lina 抢一个水果小贩。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-05-07 0:39

两人的挣扎确实都是出于一个目的。逃出那个吃人的社区。而且两个人其实都很积极,就算有迷惘糊涂的时候,最终都会再积极起来,以自己力所能及的方式抗争抗议。

我看第二本最心疼的是Lenu丢到阿诺河里的Lila的日记。虽然知道很可能是虚构可是还是心疼那麼多读不到的细节和故事了。
这段话让我印象深刻
For the first time, I left Naples, left Campania. I discovered that I was afraid of everything: afraid of taking the wrong train, afraid of having to pee and not knowing where to do it, afraid that it would be night and I wouldn’t be able to orient myself in an unfamiliar city, afraid of being robbed. I put all my money in my bra, as my mother did, andspent hours in a state of wary anxiety that coexisted seamlessly with a growing sense of liberation.
我记得高中离开家去上寄宿学校就是这感觉。又新鲜又害怕。
然后Lenu反复说到她的大学生活简直就是天堂一样的生活,“有自己的房间,自己的桌子,所有需要的书。”她的天堂是多么的简单。

还很喜欢Lenu第一个大学男友带她去巴黎那一段描写,简单绝妙而且幽默
He took me on my first trip abroad. We went to Paris, to a conference of young Communists from all over Europe. I hardly saw Paris: we spent all our time in smoky places. I was left with an impression of streets much more colorful than those of Naples and Pisa, irritation at the sound of the police sirens, and amazement at the widespread presence of blacks on the streets and in the meeting rooms;
最后那句关于到处可见的黑衣服看得我大笑!我记得当年对纽约的印象也是这个,每每从地铁里面冒出来就觉眼前“咕咚一黑”
关于去了巴黎啥都没看到也心有戚戚。年轻时看到的城市可不就是酒吧夜店吗!哈哈哈。smoky places.

我觉得Lenu每每讲到社会主义那一套都颇带讽刺。看得我莞尔。
第一本书里讲到Lila被Pasquale那些关于社会资源不平等的言论吸引住的时候,
I often looked at them walking together and, if at first it had been she who hung on his words, now it was he who hung on hers. He’s in love, I thought. I also thought: Lila will fall in love, too, they’ll be engaged, they’ll marry, they’ll always be talking about these political things, they’ll have children who will talk about the same things.
第二本里面变成Lenu自己, 哈哈哈哈
When I told Pasquale about my political experience, he wouldn’t believe that I—really, you, he said—had done a thing like that. Then he was silent, embarrassed, when I showed off my reading, declaring that I was now a Trotskyite.
这个也够一针见血的。
From Franco I also got many habits that were later reinforced by the instructions and conversations of some of the professors: to use the word “study”even if I was reading a book of science fiction; to compile very detailed note cards on every text I studied; to get excited whenever I came upon passages in which the effects of social inequality were well described. He was very attached to what he called my reeducation and I willingly let myself be reeducated.
跟其他三本比起来,第二本几乎是所有暴风雨里面的最岁月静好的时刻了。虽然Lila经历了Nino, Lenu经历了海滩上丑恶的Donato。 但是Lenu的生活几乎是一直向上向上,总可以柳暗花明。。。看到Lenu越来越独立真是很让人开心。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-05-07 1:02

Lenu 的生活在四部书里一直都是向上的,Lila的则不然。她们俩命运的不同还真就是因为受教育程度的差别。虽然这话听起来很Cliche. 这两个姑娘感觉就是互为镜像,一个真正走出去了,一个在原地挣扎着,两个人都是对方生活的另一种可能性。

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-05-07 9:09

putaopi wrote:
2019-05-07 1:02
Lenu 的生活在四部书里一直都是向上的,Lila的则不然。她们俩命运的不同还真就是因为受教育程度的差别。虽然这话听起来很Cliche. 这两个姑娘感觉就是互为镜像,一个真正走出去了,一个在原地挣扎着,两个人都是对方生活的另一种可能性。
我倒是觉得除了运气比Lenu坏,这是无法受她控制的因素,Lila并不比Lenu差啊!她那种蓬勃的生命力原创力比Lenu还要强悍!
看Lenu的生命轨迹,嫁入豪门,然后失望,婚外恋,离婚。这不是Lila二十岁之前就走过一遍的路吗?二者不同不过是意大利这个大一点的鱼池跟那不勒斯这个小一点的鱼池的区别?Lenu受的那些教育不过是方便她鹦鹉学舌的加入到一些看似高深实则没有任何实质内容的“知识分子”社交圈而已。Lila对知识的渴望,不停学习的动力从来就没有减弱过,无论生活多么残酷,暴力。。。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

helenClaire
Posts: 3103
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-07 11:05

april wrote:
2019-05-07 9:09
Lila对知识的渴望,不停学习的动力从来就没有减弱过,无论生活多么残酷,暴力。。。
我还正在想这件事,看法却正好相反。

第二册我看了三分之二。(你们不要剧烈剧透啊!)

我纳闷的是看不到Lila有学习的内在动力,按照描述,离开学校以后,每一次的学习都是在知道Lenu正在学什么后的刺激下进行的。和Lenu长跑型选手相反,Lila是爆发型短跑选手,短时间内能迅速学习到一样技能,但好像都是有用处的情况下。你没看到她做一件事,就是出于喜欢,没用处也喜欢做的。比如她结婚第一年闷在家里,时间是有的。当然啦,那么创伤性的生活转变。。。从另一个角度,不是也可以描写为需要做一些事情来逃避吗?设计鞋和商店招牌画,体现了她的艺术天赋。艺术天赋这种东西,做为一种自我表达,是最压不住的。在一个地方堵住了,会以另一种方式从另一个地方冒出来。她的设计天赋在平日里体现在哪里呢?或者说,她有什么天生内在的爱好?因此对我来说,无法看到她的天才性。天才性是内在的东西。被外在竞争性,生活需要性短暂激发出来的,不是天才。

有个细节我记不清了:Lenu的小学老师跑到她家里,说服她父母让她继续就读。这个老师有为Lila做过同样的事么?

回头看,能上初中,继而得以呆在学校里,始终有一层象牙塔保护,得以推迟直接接触社会的残酷性,以及推迟其它人生决定比如结婚,至少给了Lenu十年的成长时间。就是jun说的,我们最有共鸣的一条路。有意无意间,这成为了Lenu的脱离出身的长期策略。Lila没有这个长期策略,不过十几岁的孩子即便天才也不能要求过高,做事一突一突的(叙述角度的关系),短期迸发,迄今效用不大。

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-05-07 11:48

这两个女孩子一直是在以对方为动力的,每个人都有自己的低谷,然后受到对方的鼓励而振奋起来。Helen不要急,慢慢你会看到Lila振奋起来。第二本书里面处于Lenu上升期。接下来这两根曲线会交叉换位。。。其实Lila的动力是为了生存为了挣脱,Lenu的动力又何尝不是。难道她真的热爱那些政治讨论那些鹦鹉学舌?
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-07 12:42

对对对,我就是为 Lila着急。她好像想用大地震小地震,不停的地震,震出一个她想要的世界。不能说完全没可能,但几率低,风险不封顶,虽然这增加了剧情的戏剧性。。。but I root for her,宁可牺牲点可读性,换取她成功的几率增大。唉,太代入了,作者写得好。

与此对比, 不太为Lenu担心,第二册里她具备了经济独立的能力,至少不需要为生活而嫁人。这已经是成功了。

putaopi
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-05-07 13:01

helenClaire wrote:
2019-05-07 12:42
对对对,我就是为 Lila着急。她好像想用大地震小地震,不停的地震,震出一个她想要的世界。不能说完全没可能,但几率低,风险不封顶,虽然这增加了剧情的戏剧性。。。but I root for her,宁可牺牲点可读性,换取她成功的几率增大。唉,太代入了,作者写得好。
是这样的,替Lila着急惋惜。Helen前面提到她们小学老师就把Lila write off 的态度,我也有注意到。特别是这种态度跟Lenu还有街区里邻居孩子们对Lila才能和美貌的崇拜形成了鲜明对比,耐人寻味。我记得一家学校,每年招一定比例的低收入家庭女生,提供全额奖学金。挑选这些女孩子的标准最重要的不是成绩好,而是要面试父母,确认全家有足够的commitment 培养女孩子念书念到大学。也许小学老师见得多了,深知Lila没有家庭的支持是没前途的。

Lila不但不能读书,还要支撑全家的生活,相比之下Lenu的逃离就比较“自私”,她家的妹妹扮演了Lila的角色。想到阿耐的小说,这一点也是中国社会的现实写照。
helenClaire wrote:
2019-05-07 12:42
与此对比, 不太为Lenu担心,第二册里她具备了经济独立的能力,至少不需要为生活而嫁人。这已经是成功了。
Exactly! 我前面说Lenu的生活一直是上升的,就是这个意思。即使她后面有各种ups and downs, 她的生活和职业选择,比Lila多太多了。打住,不剧透了:-)

april
Posts: 1173
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-05-07 14:32

我明白你们的意思了。是的,Lenu的世界更安全,跟主流世界更贴近,她也可以稍微为自己喜欢的任性一下也输得起。Lila的生活就不一样,几乎没有任何保险机制,太可怜了。
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

Jun
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by Jun » 2019-05-07 15:01

特讽刺的是(作者一定是故意的)这套小说里的家长里短的描写比一本又一本的长篇大论的学术论著“意大利劳工状况”,“南意大利社会问题”,“拿波里贫民窟研究” 真实清楚一百倍。

Lila 的学习欲望确实是,至少在前两部中,跟另外一个人连在一起的而不是她自己主动发起的。失学之后自学拉丁文是为了跟上女友 Lenu,设计鞋子是跟哥哥 Rino 一起做的,婚后重新开始读书先是为了跟上 Nino,然后是为了那个啥,然后是跟那谁谁一起学啥啥。(不知道 Helen 读到哪一章,免剧透。)同时,Lenu 虽然一路是自己读书升学的,但也是因为身处学校的环境中,如果不能上学还能坚持读书吗?这说明啥呢?人都需要环境的影响,特别是role model,具体演示给人看:你还可以干别的,你还可以选别的。如果没有实实在在的演示证明,就很难自动发明一条出路,哪怕简单到两只脚走出大院儿,坐火车到米兰,找个工作,再也不回来。尤其是女孩子,在爸爸打妈妈的家里长大,前后左右都是嫁人生娃,人生成功的顶峰就是 Lila 那样嫁给 Stefano 或 Marcello,穿金戴银,吃香喝辣,在家里还是一样被老公打。很多我们觉得很简单很明显的道理,人家根本想不到,不知从何下手。

Nino Sarratori 这段貌似二女争一男的俗套,其实对她俩的成长都很重要。他是她们人生里第一个“出去”了的小伙伴,虽然是被家人带出去的而不是靠个人奋斗。他受了教育多了一圈“有文化”的光环,诱发她们无名的憧憬。尤其是刺激了本来已经放弃人生的 Lila —— 原来还有另外的可能性。

尤其是读 Pinuccia, Ada, Carmela 那段,让我不由想起成长时经常听到的鄙夷口气:“女性文学/艺术/文化全是是争风吃醋,格局太小,胸襟狭窄。” 如果她们有大把出路,机会,选择,还会窝在几个人的小圈子里争风吃醋吗?不知怎么也成了她们自己的错,好像是天生的烙印一般。
Wonderful things can happen when you sew the seeds of distrust in a garden of assholes.
--- Raylanism per Elmore Leonard via "Justified"

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-08 14:38

结束了第二册。我读后,管它剧透滔天 :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

人物利用率真高啊,和以前的青春sitcom似的,几年下来,每个人和每个人都睡过了。。。至于Lenu和渣男,我的预测,只要两人的关系一天不能consummated, Lenu的痴迷就一天无法过去。这已经是全系列里被拉伸得最长的一条情节线,可能会贯穿全书,成为她追求理想的一种平行叙事。

april
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by april » 2019-05-08 16:48

其实到第二部为止渣男还没开始渣。。。 :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

putaopi
Posts: 3522
Joined: 2006-01-18 23:35

Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by putaopi » 2019-05-08 18:14

其实渣男主要是嘴贱,不至于罪大恶极 :mrgreen:

星光
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by 星光 » 2019-05-09 2:18

我最烦渣男的是他那个理直气壮的劲儿,但是这股劲儿又很典型。
两个女主里面,我还是更疼惜Lila。

helenClaire
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Re: 那不勒斯四部曲读后 (TBC?)

Post by helenClaire » 2019-05-09 12:52

目标明天读完第三册。。。

迄今没觉得渣男有多坏呀,他不威胁人身安全,不胁迫家人,不绑架孩子,不暴力,甚至因为太full of himself而没心思对姑娘们进行心理操控。如果姑娘们选择不理他,不会有任何危险,既然这样还要和他搅和在一起,那就是自愿的,就是从中有所得的,哪怕这个“所得”具体是什么,姑娘们心理不细究,也不能否认“所得”的存在。

可能渣男这个人物还没渣到触底?说实话,不但双主角,其他配角都被塑造得越来越立体丰富,超出预期,不排除渣男也来个一鸣惊人?每个角色都被反复回收环保使用,那个去了德国消失了一段时间的Antonio大概率要突然出现,搞搞事情的。

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