也是推妈

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Jun
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Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: 也是推妈

Post by Jun » 2015-06-17 13:18

tiffany wrote:Actually I have heard people talking about this. They do not know or understand how much disadvantage they are at. Once some people take the time and energy explaining the situation, they are.. not happy about it at all.
This is probably true. But it is also true that organizing poor people is very, very hard. 至少在美国的文化里是很难的。

有个现象是真的,富人从小就知道有很多社会资源可以为及所用,包括民主制度和国家机器,所以他们整个态度和精神面貌都跟穷人不一样。穷人跟富人在精神上的重要差别之一是孤独感,穷人从小就感到没人能帮助自己,只能依赖自己,所以即使到了有资源的环境里也不会利用。
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tiffany
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Re: 也是推妈

Post by tiffany » 2015-06-17 13:21

sense of entitlement.

There is actually a charter high school that teaches the poor kids from bad neighborhood with no parental figures how to be assertive without being aggressive. It's a skill.
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豪情
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Re: 也是推妈

Post by 豪情 » 2015-06-17 13:22

人很容易被种族归属感打动,但谁也不会高高兴兴地承认自己是穷人/底层的一员。这是正常的。所以穷白人会支持伤害自己利益但是对富白人有利的政策,而拒绝有益自己也有益穷黑人/穷拉丁裔的政策。
我觉得不光是是否承认的问题, 还有一个希望和动力的问题。 即使自己是底层, 也不愿意永远是底层和子子孙孙都是底层, 不愿意完全抹杀这个往上走的动力。为了社会发展也不能过分惩罚成功。 这个也是为了大环境自愿牺牲切身和眼前利益的例子。
谁道闲情抛掷久?每到春来,惆怅还依旧。

Jun
Posts: 27816
Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Re: 也是推妈

Post by Jun » 2015-06-17 13:28

讽刺的是,如果穷人团结起来,争取制度上的改变,令国家机器为自己服务,多分点社会资源,他们的儿女上升脱贫的道路会轻松平稳很多。但是,全靠个人奋斗拼命攒钱而上升脱贫的梦想,其实让后代的 social mobility 更艰难。越是底层,越信仰个人奋斗的神话。在美国和中国是这样的,但是在很多其他国家却并非这样的文化。

不过话说回来,共同致富这种理想,也是很难讲到底是好是坏。大多数中美人民直觉上并不支持,或许也有他们的道理。
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april
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Re: 也是推妈

Post by april » 2015-06-17 15:26

巨长的文章,但是其中的数据很有意思:
The Myth of American Meritocracy
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... nstalled=0
He looked like a small panther, and he moved like a patch of night.

豪情
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Re: 也是推妈

Post by 豪情 » 2015-06-18 15:39

很多数据都有意思。
During this period, we have witnessed a huge national decline in well-paid middle class jobs in the manufacturing sector and other sources of employment for those lacking college degrees, with median American wages having been stagnant or declining for the last forty years. Meanwhile, there has been an astonishing concentration of wealth at the top, with America’s richest 1 percent now possessing nearly as much net wealth as the bottom 95 percent.2 This situation, sometimes described as a “winner take all society,” leaves families desperate to maximize the chances that their children will reach the winners’ circle, rather than risk failure and poverty or even merely a spot in the rapidly deteriorating middle class. And the best single means of becoming such an economic winner is to gain admission to a top university, which provides an easy ticket to the wealth of Wall Street or similar venues, whose leading firms increasingly restrict their hiring to graduates of the Ivy League or a tiny handful of other top colleges.
这个和我的印象一致。这个焦虑widespread, 根本不是中国人的文革饥荒阴影云云。
The absurd parental efforts of an Amy Chua, as recounted in her 2010 bestseller Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, were simply a much more extreme version of widespread behavior among her peer-group, which is why her story resonated so deeply among our educated elites. Many New York City parents even go to enormous efforts to enroll their children in the best possible pre-Kindergarten program, seeking early placement on the educational conveyer belt which eventually leads to Harvard
不过这篇讲藤校。 州立大学的州内学费名额问题又不一样。 我的确没有怎么关注藤校的确不了解内情。
谁道闲情抛掷久?每到春来,惆怅还依旧。

dropby
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Re: 也是推妈

Post by dropby » 2015-06-19 10:11

焦虑也没用啊。藤校又不是使劲推就能推进去。那些在纽约推娃上名幼儿园的,他们的娃也不见得个个都最后上了藤校。

dropby
Posts: 10921
Joined: 2003-11-24 12:23

Re: 也是推妈

Post by dropby » 2015-06-19 13:40

http://cn.nytimes.com/opinion/20150619/c19edsall/
上个月,盖洛普(Gallup)发布了一些数据,描述了从1940年到2015年,人们在回答“你认为我们的政府应不应该通过提高对富人征税来重新分配财富”这个问题时的趋势。

这些年来,美国人对这个问题的态度出现稳步左倾。人们刚开始坚决反对向富人征税,反对者与赞成者的人数比例分别为54%和35%;1999年差距大幅度缩小后,变成51%和45%。截至2015年,那些支持对富人征收重税的人成了大多数,升至52%(反对者约占45%)。
贫富差距越来越大导致的吧?
克林顿承诺要恢复“美国的基本约定:做好本职工作就可以出人头地”。
显然做好本职工作就可以出人头地已经不那么普适了。

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