阴谋理论一毛钱一打

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Knowing
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阴谋理论一毛钱一打

Post by Knowing » 2007-05-29 9:17

放假这几天把<国际经济打手的自白>这本书看了个七七八八,非常痛苦。。。痛苦是因为在佛州边缘小岛的度假村里,没带电脑,不能上WIKI 查资料,就象你明明怀疑对面的人在撒谎,不能立即查证捅他个对穿. 好奇心挠的人特别痒痒。
约翰帕金丝同学出身很苦--精神上苦。他爹在贵族寄宿学校教书,他从小在有钱孩子中长大,饱受白眼。另一方面,他爹妈又老叫他别跟本地小镇的孩子来往,受了低级阶级的带累。就这样,这孩子在自卑和自大之间矛盾的长大了,一直没混上个女朋友,内心充满了对金钱,权利和女人的极度渴望。。。据他自己说,就是这个心理素质被国家安全局看上了,专门派了个美女来腐化他。

事情倒底是怎么样的么?约翰帕金丝从波士顿大学文学学士毕业以后,跟个中学同学结婚了,一边注册商学院念着几门课(从来没拿到商学院学位),一面想干什么工作可以不去越南参军。中学同学她爹的好朋友在国家安全局干活,说:你来国家安全局吧,这工作免军役。他就去面试,并且被看上了。但是同时,美国和平工作团(Peace Corp)也给了他一个工作。国家安全局就阴森的说:你先去美国和平工作团干几年,对以后的工作有好处。他于是替和平工作团去拉美干了三年。Chas. T. Main,一个现在已经不存在的公司里,来了个头儿,说:小伙子不错,来给我们工作吧。

约翰帕金丝认为这人是国家安全局派来接他的,就高兴的去了。这掀开了他生命的新篇章,他在头一章号称"比零零七更刺激",我一直等啊等,全书都看的差不多了也没找到什么刺激的章节。。。色情暴力一概欠奉。最接近的地方就是他为了收买阿拉伯某亲王给人拉了拉皮条,那还是应阿拉伯某亲王主动要求地。就是前面说到的派来腐蚀他的美女,他也没捞到什么实际好处。在他刚开始在MAIN 干活的时候,一个美女从天而降说:我是国家安全局派来培训你当国际经济打手的。然后把他拉到个小公寓进行了三个月训练,具体内容是:我们美国要殖民,但最好不用武器。你们这些私营公司去给有资源的发展中国家咨询,说服他们需要现代化,夸张计划,让他们跟世界银行借很多很多钱,附加条件是现代化大工程--水电系统,公路火车,炼油化工厂--都得给美国公司承包。这样钱还在我们手里,左口袋换到右口袋,但是他们就背了重债。等他们还不起钱,我们美国政府就强迫他们割舍主权,就好象以前黑手党通过放高利贷控制人。当然发展中国家领导人也不是都是冤大头,计划中自然有通过腐败给他们好处,富了少数坑害大多数穷人。美国政府有三板斧:先是上经济打手腐蚀落后国家的领导人,领导人拒绝腐蚀就密谋培植反对力量推翻他,推翻不了就直接派军队入侵。作为经济打手,他就是美国政府阴谋的先锋队。
美女训练了他三个月,就人间蒸发了。从这里开始,我睁大眼睛也没找到任何一个组织上来的接头的。(这个人间蒸发的美女是不是他臆想甚至捏造出来的都很可疑)。要是真是个组织,这组织也未免太松散了。。。约翰帕金丝坚持说国家安全局一直在背后操纵他,证据是自从他听从MAIN老板暗示,夸张统计预测数据,他升职比别人都快。下面的回忆录就没什么猛料了,亲身经历的事情并不多,老是拿公开资料加点自己的揣测写综合报道。就是他的亲身经历都挺可疑的。在旅馆里碰见过一回格兰姆格林说过两句话婆婆妈妈写了一整章。然后他每到一个国家,当地反抗力量就把他单挑出来推心置腹的交底儿,交完也没要拉拢他,直接出租车就送回去了。
干了十年,他混上了合伙人,良心却备受熬煎。这时候他的老板跟大老板搞政治斗争失败被开了,他就也辞职了。据他自己揣测,国家安全局为了收买他,一直还派了另一个公司高薪雇他做咨询顾问。他开个小新型能源公司也总是及时搭上政策的顺风车。我从没见过比他更不自信的人。基本上来说,他就认为自己是个毫无真才实学的混混,一路成功全是因为出卖灵魂给魔鬼,得到国家安全局无微不至的关照。

那么他的理论可信么?
事情要分两方面来说。他列举的事实,发展中国家由于在美国政治压力/本国政治家腐化软弱/美国企业贪婪的三重作用下,借贷过度开发,过度开采资源,富了少数穷了人命毁了环境,是不争的事实。这是不是某个美国政府里的天才儿童脑袋一拍想了出来然后秘密训练一批专管夸大数据的经济学家送到私营跨国公司里去配合政府,是另一会事。除非有确凿证据,读者没法从前者推出后者。约翰帕金丝在开头虚张声势,红口白牙说自己是这个组织的内部人,却没能提供一点实证,连一个确凿丰满的“同事”都欠奉。他声称自己训练大批接班人,却又自相矛盾的说”为保护他们的良心我从未明确告诉过他们组织的目标,只是用加薪和压力来引诱他们夸大数据“。这委实无法让我相信,有这么一个严密的阴谋组织存在。理论一毛钱一打,证明了的才值钱。不然只是哗众取宠靠抹黑他人卖畅销书的花招。

国家安全部有个简短的声明,说这人除了早年来面试过一次,其他跟安全部毫无关系。他的自传里安全部来训练他做经济打手的部分,纯属捏造。这我信。他要真有什么猛料,国家安全部还不得赶紧捏死他。多年来照顾他无微不至,他还要背叛。。。

回过头来谈一下世界银行。有一点约翰帕金丝没说错,他开始在MAIN 工作时,正是越战后世界银行急剧扩张贷款的飞速增长时期。这跟越战有一点关系。世行成立于二战后,(当当当!熟人出场)凯色林格兰姆的爹尤金梅耶,就是因为被杜鲁门任命去当第一个世行的头,才把华盛顿邮报发行人的职位传给了女婿费尔格兰姆。(他没当多久就不想干回邮报了。)那时世行的主要任务是施放贷款帮助欧洲国家战后重建,美国总统派来当头也都是金融家。但是越战后期,当时的国防部长Robert McNamara 混不下去了,总统就把他发到世行当头。听起来是不是有点耳熟?
我看过一本叫"战争迷雾"的记录片,对Robert McNamara 颇存敬意。整部片子都是对他的采访,讨论越战中的教训。他姿态很大方,坦称的承认所犯的一系列错误,对越战的失败并没有极力推诿。迈克那麻拉大学兼修统计并有管理硕士学位,二战中参加空军,通过运用统计数据,大为提高轰炸机效率而得重用,战后加入福特公司,运用统计学知识管理降低成本提高效率,扭转亏损,并领导了汽车加安全带的潮流。由于管理有方,一路升成主席--是福特公司第一个非福特家族的主席。接着就被肯你地叫去当国防部长。。。
国防部长之后,他做了十三年世界银行主席,对世行进行了大规模革新扩张,游说成员国大幅度增加贷款额。他是第一个非财政专家出身的世行主席,一反前任花儿街人的谨慎作风--根据我的理解,就是说发贷款时不特别关心收不收的回来--大刀阔斧,努力砸钱。中国加入世行也是他任上的事。他认为世行的首要责任是消灭贫困,他更认为--注意了--军事安全和经济发展是息息相关的,战争是由发达国家和发展中国家的经济差距引起的。
也就是说。Robert McNamara 觉得,帮助发展中国家脱贫,能使美国更安全。

这跟“殖民控制发展中国家以达到美国国家安全”的阴谋论,那个更可行,更可信?

我知道,当我们讨厌一个政府的时候,我们容易相信它是完全邪恶的一团。事实上,实际的想,会有谁认为自己是邪恶的,并能带领一帮人邪恶?领导的艺术最大的一部分是煽动。如果一个人连自己也不信,要煽动下属是很困难的。最坏的首领都真心相信自己是救人民于水火的圣人,包括希特勒。布什肯定相信自己是个坚贞的基督徒,带领全国人民走在光明的大道上。就连切尼,据说他也坚定的相信伊朗是将要毁灭美国的邪恶核力量,非消灭不可,总有一天美国人民会感谢他的远见。但是要故意培养一批人,告诉他们“咱们的目的就是邪恶的阴谋”,好像不太可信。。政治也不是这么搞的,Robert McNamara 的“帮助发展中国家脱贫,能使美国更安全”论容易接受的多了。我还是觉的,这是他不太纯粹的本意,工商管理硕士“双赢”的典型思维。结果是不是好,跟执行大有关系。


最后要说的是:过渡开发破坏环境,在七八十年代出现的那么频繁,很多是跟当时对环保的概念不强有关的。用腐败做润滑油用强大国势施加压力帮本国企业拿合同,也不是美国独有的行为。这些事情,站在道德高度批评一下容易,要说句“支持土著保护环境”也容易,可是世行在扶贫方面的成就有目共睹。至于发放贷款项目的评价合理度有多高,是不是被美国政府完全用做政治工具,这是技术问题。开发而不过度开发是完全可能的,不必破坏环境。我基本是个工程师,总是相信技术进步利大于弊--即使带来弊端,也可以用更多的技术进步来解决。嬉皮们主张大家往小树林里一坐抽抽大麻顺应天意的生活,我是抱怀疑态度的。纯自然反工业说着轻松,来场干旱瘟疫,看你抽大麻纯自然的生活方式管什么用。 约翰帕金丝那些神叨叨主张绝对不能改变人民生存环境的主张,我觉的是RICH GUILT , 实际上对当地人民也没什么好处。

最后附送八卦一则,正文中没找到地方讲搞的我心痒难耐。。。Robert McNamara 的老婆是高中甜心,四十年后老婆得癌过世了,他跟凯色林格兰姆谈了好久恋爱,2001 年她过世,04 年他又结了第二次婚。凯色林格兰姆在自传中对自己孀居之后的恋爱生活嘴很紧,就说了一句“当然我有约会,但是要问我为什么不再婚,我只能说不我知道,就是一直没觉的有这个必要”云云。我八卦的猜想,这两人都太有名了,不愿意高调的再婚。。。 :mrgreen:
Last edited by Knowing on 2007-06-08 23:25, edited 13 times in total.
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Post by Jun » 2007-05-29 9:24

FB!

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Post by Knowing » 2007-05-29 9:29

Actually have you read the book too? I would love to know what you think, since you are so left-wing liberal and believe in conspiracy theory. I am too much a believer of modernization to buy his story. :mrgreen:
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Post by Jun » 2007-05-29 9:36

No I have not read the book. Actually I know very little about what's in the book. Eager to read your review!

But I am a cynic and totally believe in the power of self-interest.

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Post by tiffany » 2007-05-29 10:03

哇,国安局真闲 :mrgreen:
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Post by Jun » 2007-05-29 11:43

What conspiracy? Isn't all this public knowledge?

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Post by Knowing » 2007-05-29 11:50

Jun wrote:What conspiracy? Isn't all this public knowledge?
True, the overall picture is factual and public knowledge. But I think the difference here is mainly evolution vs intelligent design. Most people including myself, believe things turned out this way because the cooperate greed and US national interests naturally selected each other. His theory is someone (NSA) created the whole scheme and trained coopertations to carry it out.
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Post by Jun » 2007-05-29 11:58

Personally I have no idea how much is intelligent design and how much is pure natural progression. I'm sure it's somewhere in between. But it's generally true in US that economic interests are closely tied with politics (campaign financing, for example, and all the congressmen and senators who immediately become lobbyists). Even domestic politics is largely controlled and run by economic interests, one would imagine foreign policies are all the worse. Logical, isn't it? Most small, third world countries are so poor that manipulating their national policies, for a superpower like US, is like crushing a bug between your fingers. Why not? The entire foreign policy machine is essentially the same as a big international corporation -- USA, Inc. What do you think Paul Wolfowitz was doing "fighting corruption" with the massive amount of aids and loans? To instigate political changes in countries in the receiving end, of course. What kind of changes do you think? "To help them help themselves" and become less dependent on foreign aid? Please.

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Post by Knowing » 2007-05-29 12:14

It is hard to disprove conspiracy theories, because they usually lack verifiable evidence to start with. But what this book/ author wrote that particularly annoyed me was he claimed he had evidence but totally did not show anything solid. It was all speculation and his own story that was completely unverfiable. He was not as much an insider of NSA and EHM organization as he claimed, if indeed there was an EHM group.

Another good example is, in 2000 internet bubble era, many stock analysts pulbished exaggerating earning forecasts and misleading if not outright deceiving stock recommendations in order for the investment banking sector of their firm to get business from those dotcom firms. It is quite common practice among all big wall street firms. but if you tell me someone invented it, trained those stock analysts, in order to cheat money out of innocent investors and to destory US economy, I will just laugh. The corelation are direct enough that there is no need for a teacher, those talented people figured it out by themselves. Unless, of cause, you show me evidence that someone did host a seminar to train those wallstreet talents.
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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2007-05-29 15:40

这个美女哪里有腐化他,根本就是个长官,发号施令教小学生似的,看得见吃不着。这种美人腐化计未免太痛苦了 :twisted:
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Post by CAVA » 2007-05-30 13:13

昨天看一个历史节目,总算弄明白了当年的苏伊士运河战争是怎么搞起来的:英国法国以色列首脑,在个偏僻的房子里商定了策略,让以色列先去进攻埃及,然后英法假装劝架维和进入,乘机抢回被埃及收归国有的运河。听起来象儿戏一样,不要说自家百姓和官员,连美国政府也瞒过了。所以说,什么什么是阴谋都是有可能的。

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-05 10:37

我有更新,就是没人看。。。。。。。。。。。
是的,什么是阴谋都是有可能的,但是那本记录片肯定实际证据你才信。我就是嫌约翰帕金丝声称有证据,最后啥也没那出来,还是he says he says. :f28: :f28: :f28:
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-05 10:49

McNamara admitted he was wrong wrong wrong in Vietnam War on the documentary.

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-05 10:54

That's why I respected him.
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-05 11:00

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession ... ic_Hit_Man
Perkins's first boss at Chas. T. Main, Einar Greve, initially declared to journalists that "basically [Perkins's] story is true" and that "what John's book says is, there was a conspiracy to put all these countries on the hook, and that happened" [1]. Subsequently, he denied Perkins's allegation that he ever worked as a liaison with the NSA and contradicted other claims made in Perkins's book, stating that Perkins "has convinced himself that a lot of this stuff is true." [1]

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-05 11:11

I would say that, allowing for some author discretion, basically his story is true," Greve said during a phone interview from his Santa Barbara, Calif., home. "What John's book says is, there was a conspiracy to put all these countries on the hook, and that happened. Whether or not it was some sinister plot or not is up to interpretation, but many of these countries are still over the barrel and have never been able to repay the loans."
我觉得,MAIN 的确通过捏造夸张数据,推销了很多客户不需要的工程,这部分是真的。MAIN 做为一个工程公司,故意把工程计划的比实际需要的更大,完全可以是为了赚更多的钱。美国政府鼓励了这种行为,也是真的。但要说MAIN 是NSA 的工具,上下都是NSA 的内线,我是没看出他有什么科学依据这么控诉。

就是说,约翰帕金丝所讲关于MAIN 的不道德商业行为是真的,但他没有有力的证据说明是受了MAIN 作为一个公司,是在NSA指使下进行这些行为。
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-05 11:33

I would not be surprised if NSA did a bit of 指使, even if not explicitly in open-access documents.

US foreign policy has always been a tightly woven mesh of economics and politics and military. This has been especially true since the end of WWII. "Military Industrial Complex" was Eisenhower's own words.

There is a documentary, which I had intended to check out but haven't had time, called "Why We Fight." It explains a lot of these same things.

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-05 12:28

I don't think those international cooperations needs any encouragement or 指使 or even hint. I am sure they can't wait to sale the biggest plan possible to any client as long as the payment is garanteed. It is much more likely to be the other way around. The well-connected CEOs told their golf buddies in NSA to make sure the president of developing country accept their inflated bids instead of the more reasonable plans for other company from other countries.
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Post by tiffany » 2007-06-05 12:44

我同意小k。这种公司,要的我觉得应该只要它觉得是没有人会出来罚它,肯定是怎么赚钱怎么来。
又,我看了,没敢说赶紧继续,本着自己住玻璃房子的原则。
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-05 13:13

Generally we know that corporations achieve their economic goals through political and military means. Why can't it be the other way around? Using economics to achieve political goals for US -- which in turn drives profits higher? For example, do you think what Paul Wolfowitz was doing achieved more political or economical goals? He was less of a economist than the engineer of the Iraq war.

An example (not exactly the same) -- Uganda government was forced to change their anti-AIDS policy to emphasize abstinance advocacy (although they kept free condoms) so as not to lose USAID money. This is clearly an example of using $$$ means to reach political ends, because there is no ultimate economical goals. US government certainly has their own intentions with foreign governments. WHy wouldn't they use corporations to achieve this goals? A lot of businesses in this area get money from US government and World Bank. Do you think they would say no if they are told to do this and that for US government?

Ultimately my point is that politics and business are one and the same. The resource and efforts go both ways.

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Post by Jun » 2007-06-07 7:22

写完了吗?

最近在疯狂地看两部电视剧,一部是BBC America放的The State Within,让人回想起The State of Play,前几年的一部英国电视剧,它们都是讲国家政治高层里的阴谋交易之类的悬疑。The State Within 基本上就是猜测伊拉克战争的起源过程,但是把范围缩小化,把参与人物减少,再把里面最臭最黑的成份漂白消毒一点,就差不多了。

两部电视剧的结尾都是让人吃惊的cop-out,象Dan Brown的小说一样最后笔锋一转把最高最有权的组织和人物给放了(off the hock),把责任推到底层坏人身上,我估计都是作者们害怕被报复给自己留的后路。

最后叹一句:英国人真能写mystery侦探悬疑类的故事,闭着眼都能搞出复杂而且抓人的puzzle来。

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-07 8:51

没有完,虽然没人看,我还是想八卦一下世界银行的扩张。。
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2007-06-07 8:58

谁说每人看! :mad2:
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Post by CAVA » 2007-06-07 9:09

就是,看了不知道发表什么感想而已 :!:

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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2007-06-07 9:19

我想了半天只能说:我也看过战争迷雾。
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-07 11:07

I plan to go see John Perkins next Monday at P&P -- if he shows up. He has a new book out.

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-07 11:09

!! Do let me know if he is really nuts/off in person! :rabbit001: :rabbit001:
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-07 11:18

Do you have a question for him? Maybe I can ask him for you? :mrgreen:

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-07 11:22

yeah! Let me dig out the original quote in his book when I get home .. But basicly in first few chapters, he wrote he and his "fellow EHM" said this and that as if they had a club or sth, but I didn't see anywhere else in the book any admitted to him that they were NSA trained EHM too. and where did the little EHM community concept come from?
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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-09 0:06

Ok, here is my question to John Perkins
In your book Confession of an Economic Hit Man, you defined EHM as "Highly paid professionals who cheat countries aorund the gloabe out of trillions of dollars. They funnel money from the world bank, the USAID and other foreign aid organizaitions into the coffers of huge corporations and pockets of a few wealthy families who control the planet's natuaral resources". Do you believe all, or majority of US infrastructure/construction company doing business in developing country were controlled by trained EHM like yourself? Because other than your mentor "Claudine" you did not mention anyone specific who claimed to be trained by NSA to perform EHM role, neither did you name any specific company for unethical conduct other than MAIN. How can you claim EHM is an organized crime like Mafia?
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-09 7:20

I have a lot of thoughts and will discuss later. I don't have any inside info but just some general observations.

World Bank and IMF do funnel a lot of money to 3rd world countries for development. It is widely agreed that a large proportion ends up in the pocket of corrupt local officials, but the profit of the private companies who are involved in development is rarely discussed.

And World Bank, IMF have been long attacked for preventing rather than promoting economic growth and a fair chance for 3rd world countries they supposedly "help", because these loans might have helped for a few years, but end up destroying future opportunities with interest payments that break these countries' back.

It's not just some hippies who believe WB and IMF are far from benevolent organizations. Darn I cannot remember his name now -- a world-renowned economist I also saw at P&P last year. His talk was quite illuminating. He talked about how borrowing money for local development pretty much destroyed the economy of most 3rd world countries -- not from an environmental POV but from economic POV. He gave some numbers about Brazil being much better off when they did not borrow from IMF, but their economy tanked and still has not recovered after they borrowed. I have to look it up.

The thing about spy is that you need only a few of them in powerful positions among a large number of oblivious worker bees to achieve the goals they set out. I am sure most USAID, WB, IMF workers and some managers are completely well intentioned. They just follow the orders. Good things and bad things always coexist in this world and within an organization. An agency can do 70% charity and 30% destruction, but the 30% destruction may be far more profound.

About good intentions, I suggest you read "The Quiet American" again and consider if Aden Pyle was a well intentioned idealist. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Also I recommend the book "Psychopaths Next Door." Do politicians believe in the goodness of their action? What if a politician believes heaven is only for white Americans who look and think like him and the rest deserve to go to hell, just like the believes of other religious extremists?
Last edited by Jun on 2007-06-09 7:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 森林的火焰 » 2007-06-09 7:22

完全同意小K关于发展经济和世界银行的理论。要组织三五个人的阴谋,还比较可能;组织成百上千人的阴谋是很难的,人越多风险越大,肯定就会分化出左中右派互相吵嘴扯皮,泄露机关。人就是这么一种奇怪的动物:构想是一回事,等做起来的时候,不管是阴谋还是善事,在面对人事上的头痛是差不多的。
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-09 7:34

To make a high level conspiracy work, you don't need to tell 成百上千人 in order to involve them. You only need to have 三五个人 who tell 成百上千人 what to do. If you have worked in large corporations, you would know the vast majority of employees are just following orders, and the ultimate purpose of these orders are not always obvious. Millions of people have worked for, say, tobacco companies, oil companies, etc. Were they all aware of the secret memos that designed more addictive cigarettes and manipulate politics? No, they were just working stiffs. Do most soldiers who get themselves killed and maimed know what a war's true purpose is? Yet don't they follow orders?

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Post by Jun » 2007-06-09 9:59

Ah yes, Joseph Stiglitz. 我是完全不懂经济学的,所以也没有什么可靠的看法。不过去年听Stiglitz的很短的讲话,听得我汗都下来了。他还是支持全球化的,但是他对八九十年代open trade和全球化经济的批判真让人疑心顿起。基本上他讲发达国家的经济学家竭力鼓吹穷国全面开放市场,说是对穷国自己有好处,而且WB,IMF,和富国的对外经济政策都采用了这些理论。结果呢,穷国采取了这些理论和政策的全都倒霉,负债累累还不起,更别提发展自己的本土经济和基础建设了,而开放贸易后,被跨国公司倾销进口的廉价商品,他们自己因为infrastructure和科技落后,产品价格无法同中国印度等地产品竞争,连扶植本国工业发展的余地都没有。他讲,象中国和印度这样没有听信和采用美英经济学全球化理论的国家,发展速度相当惊人,而拉美和非州国家,全面采用这些经济学家的"咨询",结果到现在还一厥不振。当然他没认为那些经济学家对穷国发展的"支招"是故意的和恶意的,但是你把他的数据和Perkins的阴谋理论对照了看,不是没有可能的。所有鼓吹全球化和开放经济的人都是恶意阴谋的吗?当然不是,绝大多数是好意的,但是里面夹杂了几个别有目的的人,并且手握重权,直通领导人的耳朵,效果就跟普通学者完全不一样。
故意培养一批人,告诉他们“咱们的目的就是邪恶的阴谋”,好像不太可信
他们说服自己和手下所用的说法或许不是"邪恶的阴谋",但是"打入xx贫穷国家,廉价倒卖大量当地自然资源,从中谋取暴利,并且用腐蚀当地政治方法消灭一切反对因素",这是很普遍很自然的,可以说目的是为咱们自家或者自己公司的光辉前途嘛。如果对自己没好处,干坏事也没什么动力,但是这里面很明显有很多实际的好处,那何乐而不为呢?比利时国王Leopard二世在刚果的做法那是公开的硬来,现在的跨国公司只不过是把同类的做法和目的移到幕后而已。人是干得出这种事的,for no other reason than greed and because he can,还是别对"良心"这种东西太信了。

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Post by » 2007-06-10 8:45

Stiglitz说这话的时候大概左派情结发作了。
拉美经济糟糕,为什么一定归结于市场开放而不是归结于政治动荡?
中国大概是全球化的最大受益者,进出口占GDP的比重从1980年代中期的5%上升到现在的60%。怎么倒拿来当反全球化的样本?

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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2007-06-10 10:27

http://www.fabvalley.org/bbs/viewtopic. ... 3%C9%B9%C5
我曾经贴过一个蒙古裔学者研究蒙古在美国学者的指导下发展经济的文章,不知道有没有关系。
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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-10 11:18

对,经济发展上,发达国家走的弯路也不少,更何况不是每个名校毕业的经济学家都有资格跑到小国指点江山,指点出来是什么结果,完全可能很不理想。经济学金融学管理这种社会学科,历史短条件复杂,比起自然学科来,理论的完全程度,可靠程度低的多了。打个比方,统计数据说,华尔街专业股票分析师,选股的准确率平均也就是52%,比普通人的47%只高5%。当然啦,长期看了,高那一点也就高不少了。。但是你想,随机扔硬币还50%呢。。。你真的觉的,经济学家跑到发展中国家三五个月策划一个项目,成功率就那么有保证?

我不是认为阴谋论完全不可能,但是我觉的John Perkins 的叙述不可靠。这个阴谋论不是他的首创。提出一个理论,要取信于人,得靠翔实的数据,具体的分析。他这些都欠缺,写到具体事例蜻蜓点水,靠的是爆内幕的卖点。到了爆内幕完全是他说她说的阶段,虽然老话是讲“口说无凭”,读者还是要看说话人的资格,和叙述的具体细节来判断。前一条,要是 Robert McNamara 出来写本回忆录谈他怎么通过过度发放贷款造成小国对美国的经济依赖,我当然就信了。后一条,我读Dennis Ross 的回忆录时,他讲到几个首领的言语行为,虽然跟他们的公开形象完全不同,但是人物跃然纸上,细节充满真实感。John Perkins 号称他见过的人,都跟纸人儿画的一样,编的比好来坞还假。

当然啦,因为读这本哗众取宠的畅销书,引起了我对这个问题的兴趣,连续找了不少相关的东西来看,也算有所收获。所以坏的书未必没有存在价值。 :mrgreen:
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-10 11:20

Stiglitz说这话的时候大概左派情结发作了。
拉美经济糟糕,为什么一定归结于市场开放而不是归结于政治动荡?
左派情结一定是错的,而右派理论一定是对的?且不说国与国之间的利益冲突和道德责任之类,就是美国本身的长远利益来讲,右派政治过去几年里的经济政策真的比Clinton时候的管钱管得好?

拉美政治动荡很久了,巴西经济增长快的时候也不见得就多安定团结。而且拉美政治动荡根源在哪里?大家都知道不全是他们自己的责任吧。早就是典型的大国通过政治军事手段达到经济目的的例子.

过去二十年里穷国跟富国之间的差距其实更加拉大了,吃亏的地方比冷战时期更多,往殖民时代更加靠拢,因为世界和平了,大国不需要提供好处拉拢贫穷小国,制衡对手,小国手上的筹码也大大减少。通过经济手段而达到的予取予求,看上去"公平"而"文明",跟武力手段达到的效果没有本质差别。

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-10 11:26

欢迎大家继续积极讨论。我要回国HAPPY 去了!等回来看大家的高论。JUN 给你布置家庭作业,写一片PERKINS 观后感。 :monkey001: :music004:
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-10 11:32

我要回国HAPPY 去了!
When? FB!!! :speechless001: :let_me_die: I want more vacation!

I'll bring your question with me tomorrow and see if I'll get the chance to ask him.

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Post by pomo » 2007-06-10 18:58

Knowing wrote:欢迎大家继续积极讨论。我要回国HAPPY 去了!等回来看大家的高论。JUN 给你布置家庭作业,写一片PERKINS 观后感。 :monkey001: :music004:
我作为祖国边区人民,恳切的问,您视察我们边区疾苦么? 8)

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Post by pomo » 2007-06-10 19:00

笑嘻嘻 wrote:http://www.fabvalley.org/bbs/viewtopic. ... 3%C9%B9%C5
我曾经贴过一个蒙古裔学者研究蒙古在美国学者的指导下发展经济的文章,不知道有没有关系。
笑同学的引用工作做得真细致――我是说你的签名。

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Post by ravaged » 2007-06-10 19:04

we know pitifully little about how politics interacts with economics, especially when it crosses borders. dependency theory has its charms, but it doesn't fit well beyond 1970s latin america. when east asia took off, dependency theory was all but forgotten, but then japan went into recession and the east asian financial crisis rolled along, so people were hard pressed to come up with something else. china is indeed one of the biggest beneficiaries of globalization, but its exposure to the world economy coupled with domestic distortions is now leading to great imbalances that may one day plunge it into a sharp recession. likewise, the recent sharp rise in energy and commodity prices has done more than anything else to help the poor resource-producing nations of the world (and rendered the IMF irrelevant), yet some (but not all) still suffer from the dutch disease. it's very comforting if there were one grand theory that explains the rise and fall of nations as a result of an explicit design, but unfortunately reality is a lot messier.
Now that happy moment between the time the lie is told and when it is found out.

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Post by Knowing » 2007-06-10 19:55

pomo wrote:
Knowing wrote:欢迎大家继续积极讨论。我要回国HAPPY 去了!等回来看大家的高论。JUN 给你布置家庭作业,写一片PERKINS 观后感。 :monkey001: :music004:
我作为祖国边区人民,恳切的问,您视察我们边区疾苦么? 8)
我主要是回去彩衣娱亲的。我爹妈对去你们这些发达的边远地区不感兴趣。。。
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Post by Jun » 2007-06-10 20:20

Knowing I have homework assignment for you too. I want photos and narratives of your sightseeing adventures, including food and exotic stories and good-looking boy photos. OK?
我不是认为阴谋论完全不可能,但是我觉的John Perkins 的叙述不可靠。我读Dennis Ross 的回忆录时,他讲到几个首领的言语行为,虽然跟他们的公开形象完全不同,但是人物跃然纸上,细节充满真实感。John Perkins 号称他见过的人,都跟纸人儿画的一样,编的比好来坞还假。
That's something I totally can believe. You can't fake human behavior and intuitive impression. (See Blink.)

The way I look at unsubstantiated theories like this is: Follow the money. Who's gotten the fattest? Who's been screwed? I don't believe money falls from the sky and just hit on some people's head. And I don't believe in the benevolent and honest nature of those who are in power. Of course that's just my anti-authority tendency.

Of course nobody can to guarantee that their plan would work effectively and exactly according to the blueprint. Having power and being smart are not the same thing.

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Post by » 2007-06-11 2:43

左派情结一定是错的,而右派理论一定是对的?
我想我只记得Stiglitz是研究经济学的了,忘了他还是克林顿首席经济顾问,还是world bank前president,忘了他以激烈批评imf对东欧前社会主义国家的一揽子政策而著名。

不过即便他还有这些身份,在作研究的时候,左也好右也好也都是第二位的,反正先要拿着数据说话。左不对并不意味着右就对。而且左对不对也不重要,重要的是个人左的态度,不能影响他从数据出发说话。谁懂经济学的,给说说,有没有什么研究证明了是全球化而不是政治动荡导致东欧和拉丁美洲国家的经济差?

主流经济学家大概没有不信globalization的。就算stiglitz的那本Making Globalization Work也不是说不要globalization,他只不过说globalization不可能完美的发生,发展中国家在globalization的时候会有什么什么问题,这些问题政府应该如何调控。他批评imf也不是说东欧国家不应该市场化,只不过是批评imf的政策不对,不对了美国政府还压着不让说这些政策失败。
而且谁知道他的愤怒,有多大程度是针对宿敌summers呢?

另外其实中国不知道有意的还是无意的,倒是挺符合他的想法,一直把金融市场留着没敢开。

至于说阴谋,政治,什么给什么打前站,我一无所知,也没啥想法。

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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2007-06-11 7:09

pomo wrote:
笑嘻嘻 wrote:http://www.fabvalley.org/bbs/viewtopic. ... 3%C9%B9%C5
我曾经贴过一个蒙古裔学者研究蒙古在美国学者的指导下发展经济的文章,不知道有没有关系。
笑同学的引用工作做得真细致――我是说你的签名。
那还得说是您的系统信息优良。
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